The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call Members to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education. And the first question, Jeremy Miles.

<p>Education for Co-operation</p>

Jeremy Miles AC: 1. What steps are being taken by the Cabinet Secretary to implement the recommendations of the Welsh Co-operative and Mutuals Commission relating to ‘Education for Co-operation’? OAQ(5)0132(EDU)

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Jeremy. Our national mission of education reform is building an inclusive and equitable education system that supports every learner. We are continuing to strengthen our approach to policy co-construction across the three-tier model, and will work closely with our partners to develop our new curriculum and our new professional teaching standards.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that reply. In its update to its report, the commission recognised there were ongoing discussions between the Welsh Government and the Co-operative College, in relation to co-operative education in schools, and described a model that was preserving the maintained status of schools also encouraged the spread of co-operative ethos and principles within the curriculum and in the life of the school. And I wonder whether the Government will be taking proactive steps to encourage that development, having regard to the Bevan Foundation report of a few years ago, which set out some very practical steps, encouraging schools to go along that journey.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Jeremy. As part of their rapid policy review, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development identified our comprehensive schools system, which emphasises equity and inclusion as one of the strengths of Welsh education. We are making considerable gains towards a self-improving system in Wales. And we must build on these foundations and continue to develop those approaches, which are based on co-operation, across all schools, learning from each other good practice, as well as incorporating issues around co-operation within the curriculum itself.

David Melding AC: Cabinet Secretary, on a slightly different tack, but still in the mainstream of this question, encouraging enterprise in schools, amongst the pupils, in particular, I think is a marvellous thing to do. I’ve many times previously called for social enterprises to be encouraged—I think each secondary school ought to have at least one—and why not use the model of co-operatives? What better way of organising that sort of enterprise?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, David. The revised Welsh baccalaureate highlights the importance of developing the essential skills and presents opportunities for the co-operative and mutual sector to engage, through the enterprise and employability challenges, and the community challenges. Organisations are therefore being encouraged to develop or become involved in the delivery of those challenges, within individual schools, and, obviously, entrepreneurship forms one of those challenges. I am continually looking at ways in which we can encourage those types of skills to be embedded within the curriculum, because they’re really important skills for our children to learn and utilise in the world of work.

<p>Work Experience Opportunities</p>

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on work experience opportunities for pupils? OAQ(5)0131(EDU)[W]

Kirsty Williams AC: Diolch yn fawr, Rhun. Well-planned, structured work experience placements can provide young people with a valuable insight into the world of work. Schools and local authorities are responsible for providing pupils with work-focused experiences as part of the delivery of the careers and the world of work curriculum framework.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you. This is an issue I raised with the First Minister in a supplementary question yesterday. A number of councils, as you know, have taken the decision to cancel the work-experience placement for year 10 and 12 pupils, including Anglesey. And, again, I declare an interest as the parent of two children—one in year 10 and the other in year 12. Parents and pupils have expressed huge disappointment with this, particularly given the work that’s gone in to getting a placement with an employer and the keen competition for placements in some cases.Assessments of the appropriateness of employers used to be done by Careers Wales. You’ve confirmed in a letter to me that this has been removed from the remit of Careers Wales as a result of tightening financial positions. Do you accept, therefore, that there is a direct result between the decisions taken by the last Government, in terms of cutting budgets, and the fact that work experience is now being cancelled?But there is a confusion here too. In your letter to me, you state that there are no health and safety regulations that make it a requirement for schools or local authorities to carry out assessments of workplaces for work-experience placements. But the Isle of Anglesey County Council refers me to documentation from the Health and Safety Executive that notes that schools do need to be assured that employers have carried out the appropriate checks. So, who is telling the truth here—you or the Health and Safety Executive? And, if it is you, then, what support have you offered to local authorities to give them the assurance that they can continue with work experience arrangements, which are crucially important?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Rhun. First of all, I welcome the fact that we both recognise that work placements and work experience have a valuable role to play. I hope you will be pleased to note that I have identified some resource, some £2.4 million over the next four years, to support stronger work between schools and employers, and I will make an announcement shortly on how that is to be spent. I understand that schools have faced challenges following the removal of the work experience database and the health and safety checking of employers’ premises, which used to be undertaken by Careers Wales. But it is a source of regret to me that Ynys Môn and Gwynedd have decided to stop this altogether, and that is in stark contrast to some excellent practice that has gone on in other local authorities and in other schools to maintain this provision. And I declare an interest as a mother of a year 10 pupil myself, and my daughter and her cohort will be going on work placements later on in July, which have been carefully handled by the school.I would commend the approach taken by Carmarthenshire council for instance, who have stepped up to the plate and have done tremendous work in creating a database for work placements, which will enable children in Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire and beyond to avail themselves of this opportunity. And what is frustrating to me is that, in a small nation such as ours, good work that is being carried out in some local authorities, such as Carmarthenshire, cannot be spread more easily to other parts of Wales. And I will be asking the regional consortia to redouble their efforts to ensure that where individual local authority schools have been able to overcome these challenges, and implement a system that allows children to take part in these schemes, that we’re able to spread that good practice to other areas of Wales so that all children can participate.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I think we all recognise that access to work experience is incredibly important for young people, and not just any work experience, but decent, valuable experience that is not reliant on perhaps what’s easiest or who you know. Thinking back to my own work experience, I actually went to the ‘Flintshire Chronicle’, where you can find an article by Hannah Blythyn, aged 15, headlined, ‘Don’t criticise what you don’t understand: Having a Go at Politicians’. [Laughter.] That article was actually looking at how young people are stereotyped and need to be listened to, and I am now in a position to do something about it. At a recent event with students at Coleg Cambria in Northop, we talked about access to work, and work experience and things were discussed. And one of the things that they came up with was, alongside your traditional work experience, to look for things that have more taster-type sessions, where people can go into workplaces and experience the different options out there, post 16, to help them influence their decisions for their further education, apprenticeships and training. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that that would be a good idea, with the young people’s idea, to do that, and what steps can be taken to make that happen?

Kirsty Williams AC: I think what’s absolutely crucial is that we take into consideration what young people themselves will find useful. And I’m sure all of us will be aware of situations where people have found themselves perhaps doing the photocopying for a week, and that isn’t necessarily the most useful or stimulating or inspiring kind of placement. So, we do have to focus on the quality of those placements, and we have to listen to young people about what they find will be most useful for them, and that might indeed be shorter, taster sessions, that avail them of a variety of opportunities to look at a variety of careers. And we do often need to do that earlier on in a pupil’s life, because, sometimes, the choices that they’re making at GCSE level could be potentially cutting short, or cutting off, future careers options. I would like to commend the work, for instance, of Powys County Council, who earlier this year organised a county-wide careers fair that brought together employment from across the county, both in the public and the private sector, to show young people the wide variety of careers that are available in the county of Powys, and to talk to them about how they can make educational choices that will allow them to take advantage of that. And it’s those kinds of innovative schemes that are being put on by some local authorities that should be applauded, and, again, we need to make sure that that is replicated as good practice across the nation.

<p>Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople</p>

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I’m sure, Cabinet Secretary, that you’ll have seen the figures from NUT Cymru published this week, showing that, in the four years since 2012, 0.25 million teaching days were lost to stress-related illness in Wales. You’ll also be aware, I’m sure, that college lecturers in Wales are striking tomorrow, with their union warning that a heavy workload is ruining their lives and pushing them to the brink. And, of course, we’ve well trailed in this Chamber the Education Workforce Council’s recent workforce survey, which showed that a third of schoolteachers and a quarter of FE lecturers tell us that they intend to leave their respected professions in the next three years. Now, when you agreed your 10 education priorities with the First Minister on entering Government, shouldn’t you at the very least have included an eleventh, which is the well-being of the workforce, because, without that, you’re not going to achieve any of the 10?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, Llyr, as we rehearsed in the committee this morning, one of my priorities is to ensure that we have an excellent and outstanding workforce in all aspects of education, and workload concerns are very real. They vary greatly across the education workforce; they’re not just confined to teachers in schools, as you have recognised. Different issues and priorities arise depending on a variety of factors, including what phase of education somebody might find themselves teaching in; a rurality where, perhaps, teachers are teaching a class with a variety of age groups, requiring significant differentiation, which can be difficult to do; deprivation; subject area; and their role. What’s important is we try to do something about that. The first ever teacher survey that we’ve done has provided us with a wealth of opportunity to try and understand some of these very real concerns from the chalkface, and we continue to analyse those data. Detailed discussions are taking place with the education workforce unions on policy in early development, and we continue to work in partnership with those unions to try and address the concerns to a variety of work streams within the Government.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for your answer, but I think it’s clear to everyone that the statistics tell a clear story that we have a workforce that’s on its knees in terms of struggling to cope with the work that confronts them. Now, the loss of so many teaching days clearly has a number of impacts, least of all on the individual who’s off work. It disrupts the education of the children, schools’ finances, of course, when you have to bring in supply teachers—and I saw that Cardiff alone has spent £12 million on supply teachers in this academic year only—and, of course, on the remaining staff, there’s an impact there because they have to carry an additional burden invariably. Now, a year ago this month, you established the ministerial supply model taskforce. You published the report back in February, but we’ve heard nothing since, really. Now, given that our education system is so reliant on supply teaching, when will we see definitive action from your Government on this front?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, Llyr, I don’t disagree with your analysis of the impact of days lost to teaching. The issue is what to do about it. As I said in my first answer to you, we have a variety of work streams looking to try and avoid that problem in the first place—i.e. not to be reliant on supply teachers, but, actually, to keep teachers well, resilient and in front of our children in the classroom. I, in conjunction with my Cabinet colleague for health, are looking at plans for what we can to do support resilience and support the mental health of teachers by giving them tools to address their own issues around stress management and workload management, as well as being able to teach those then on to the children. With regard to the task and finish group on the supply workforce, I have to say I was somewhat disappointed with the conclusions of that report. If we had hoped that the task and finish group would come up with a silver bullet to solve this problem, then I’m afraid the report has not been able to do that. We continue to discuss ways in which we can work not to diminish but to limit the reliance on supply teaching, and that is tied up with our work on policy development following the devolution of teachers’ pay and conditions.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: But it’s four months since you told me that you were looking to move on this agenda, and given, again, the data and the statistics that we have, clearly, time is of the essence. So, I won’t press you further on that today, but, clearly, there’s a message there that needs to be listened to.Can I just change direction a little bit for my final question? It’ll become clear, Presiding Officer, why I’m directing my question to the Cabinet Secretary and not the Minister in a moment. It’s about the additional learning needs Bill. The Minister told us that £10 million of the £20 million budget he has for financing the additional learning needs transformation programme comes from the £100 million that you agreed with the First Minister for raising school standards. He told us that at Stage 1 scrutiny of the Bill. Now that it has become evident, of course, that the cost of the additional learning needs legislation is substantially higher—up to £13 million more expensive—than was originally anticipated over the projected period, could you tell us whether you expect a further sum to be vired from the £100 million for school standards, and, if that does happen, what impact do you think that’ll have on that particular budget?

Kirsty Williams AC: Let us be absolutely clear: in radically reforming the way in which we support children with additional learning needs, that is integral to our national mission of raising standards in Welsh schools and closing the attainment gap. The performance of those children is crucial if we are to see the changes in Welsh education that we need. Now, undoubtedly, there is a resource implication for ensuring that those children—and that legislation is implemented successfully, and we will continue to have discussions both within the education department on how that piece of legislation is funded, and discussions across Government. But I’m absolutely clear that we cannot divorce the education of our children with additional learning needs from our national mission to raise standards for all.

Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, on Friday, the day after the general election, there was a piece of news that suggested that your Government is cutting £28 million-worth of funding from the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, which is obviously going to have a significant impact on Welsh universities. Why did you decide to bury bad news on that day, and how can you defend those cuts?

Kirsty Williams AC: The Higher Education Funding Council for Wales made that announcement. As Darren Millar would well know as the spokesperson for his party, HEFCW is an arm’s-length body and the delivery of that particular announcement was nothing to do with me.

Darren Millar AC: You didn’t answer my question, which was: how can you defend—how can you defend—the cuts that HEFCW is now having to deliver, because of the lack of funding from the Welsh Government, to Welsh universities? We know already that Bangor University, Aberystwyth University, Trinity Saint David, and the University of South Wales have all warned that they’re going to have to make significant cuts to their workforce and restrict courses. How can you defend the cuts that you are now imposing upon our Welsh universities?

Kirsty Williams AC: Darren, let’s be clear: education as a whole in Wales faces a very difficult time given the constraints of the budget that the Welsh Government has available to it, and very difficult decisions have to be made. But I’m sure, having taken such a great interest in the press notice, you will have read the words of David Blaney, the chief executive, who has explained that these cuts are a result of the fact that an additional £20 million, which I was able to find in-year for HEFCW, will not be available next year. Part of that money is being used to try and put our universities in a better position going forward. And another part of the cut relates to the fact that we have removed the money for the Coleg Cenedlaethol out of HEFCW and we are funding that work directly as a Welsh Government, and that also appears in the fact that there is less money available in HEFCW. Let’s also be clear: the money available via HEFCW to Welsh universities is a very small proportion of the money available to Welsh HEIs; I understand it is less than 10 per cent of their overall budgets.

Darren Millar AC: Well, I’m not surprised it’s very small, and it’s going to get a darn sight smaller, isn’t it, while you keep underfunding our Welsh university sector and the Higher Education funding Council for Wales. The reality is that this is going to widen the funding gap between Welsh universities and universities over the border in England, which is going to make it more difficult for them to recruit students, which is going to widen the funding gap, therefore, even further and have a huge impact on research and training. And I have to say, I’m astonished by your volte-face, given the fact that you were championing extra resources going into HEFCW only last year when you were in opposition. Your tone has completely changed, you’ve clearly adopted the Labour line on our Welsh universities, and I would urge you again to look at the resources within your departmental budget to see what additional resources you can make available to help close this funding gap, which has widened under Welsh Labour-led administrations and looks set to widen even further as a result of you sitting around the Cabinet table.

Kirsty Williams AC: Darren, let’s be absolutely clear what I was able to do on coming into Government: it was to find the additional £20 million that had been taken out of the budget whilst I was in opposition, and we’ve been able to make that money available to higher education. But, seriously, I will take no lectures from a Conservative politician with regard to the funding of higher education. You have, in England, thrown that sector to the market, and it is the market that is driving HE provision in England. That will not happen in Wales, and we will use the opportunity of our radical reforms under the Diamond proposals to move our HE funding onto a more sustainable footing. That is a system that is being looked on with envy by other people, such as Scotland.

UKIP spokesperson, Michelle Brown.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can the Cabinet Secretary tell us how many primary schools feed into high schools that are in the red or amber category and how many primaries in the red and amber categories feed into high schools that are in the yellow or green categories?

Kirsty Williams AC: Presiding Officer, I try to prepare for these sessions, but I have to admit that, for the first time since I’ve stood at this dispatch box, I will have to write to the Member with those specific details. But what I can tell the Member happily is that the number of schools that find themselves in a red category, whether that be secondary or primary, is going down—and that is to be celebrated.

Michelle Brown AC: Okay. Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Schools in the amber category will receive up to 15 days’ support, with those in the red category receiving up to 25 days’ support. There’s no mention of additional resources in the guidance given to parents and schools—the additional resources being for the purposes of employing more teachers and to provide additional and upgraded facilities. Are you content that 25 days’ support is enough to take a school out of the red category, and what sort of work is going to be done with schools during those 25 days?

Kirsty Williams AC: The work that goes on to help schools on their improvement journey is tailor-made to the individual circumstances of each school. The Member asked the question, ‘Can we be confident that that level of support is sufficient to move a school forward?’ The answer to that is ‘yes’, and the reason I can say that is because I have visited schools that, just a short four years ago, were in the red category and, year on year, have moved up the categorisation system and now find themselves as green schools. Now, some schools’ school improvement journey will take longer and they will need more sustained levels of support. The whole point behind our categorisation system is that, by working collectively with the consortia and the individual schools, we can identify shortcomings, we can identify what needs to be done, and the support will be put in place to make those improvements.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Schools will clearly benefit from the kind of advice and support you’re talking about, and I realise that improving schools is an ongoing process, which is why the lack of concrete support reflected in the guidance on the school classification system concerns me. However, there are young people who will have spent their education in either an amber or red classified school whilst you’re taking the softly softly approach to school improvement. What are you going to do to improve the life chances of young people who have been failed by the Welsh education system?

Kirsty Williams AC: I certainly am not taking a softly softly approach, but I can tell you what will not work is simply me stamping my foot here in this Chamber. School improvement is a collective endeavour that is the responsibility of individual school leaders, the staff within those schools, the governing bodies, local education authorities, the regional consortia, and, indeed, this Welsh Government. I have high expectations of our education system. I have high expectations of our school leaders. They are in no doubt of that. But I also know that I need to put in place measures to help those schools make those improvements, and that’s what I will continue to do.

<p>Priorities for Schools</p>

Lynne Neagle AC: 3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on her priorities for schools in Wales for the next six months? OAQ(5)0139(EDU)

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Lynne. I have set out our national mission to improve education attainment through a programme of education reforms. These include the development of a new curriculum and assessment reform, improved initial teacher education, teachers’ professional development and building leadership capacity, and, crucially, reducing the attainment gap for our poorer children.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I very much welcome your assurances in committee this morning that the renamed pupil deprivation grant will continue to be targeted at pupils on free school meals and also thank you for your kind words about Woodlands school in my constituency. It is undoubtedly the case that there is really excellent practice in the use of the PDG in Wales, and I recently visited Garnteg Primary School, where they are making outstanding use of the PDG to promote emotional resilience and mental well-being amongst their pupils. What assurances can you offer that you will continue to prioritise funding for the PDG, and also that you will stringently monitor the use of the PDG to ensure that is does benefit the pupils that it is intended to?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you. I know that some people have concerns about changing the name of the pupil deprivation grant to ‘pupil development grant’, but let me be clear: the reason for doing so is because I do not want to focus on the barriers that children face to their learning. I want to focus on their ability and having high expectations and ambitions for those children. The PDG will continue to focus on the learning needs of those who are on free school meals, but we’re also extending that to children who are looked-after, and also extending it to children who find themselves in education other than at school, who are some of our most vulnerable learners. This year, the Welsh Government will spend £93 million via the PDG, and there is excellent practice going on out there that is truly transforming the life chances of our young people. I was delighted to visit Woodlands primary school with you to see at first hand the work they do, and equally delighted to recently visit Blaenymaes Primary School with Mike Hedges AM, a school that has high levels of free school meal pupils, and to note that, in their recent Estyn report, they received an ‘excellent’ categorisation for well-being. The pupil deprivation grant is something that I championed whilst I was in opposition and I am delighted to have the opportunity to expand now that I am in Government.

Suzy Davies AC: It’s just over four months, actually, since Members from all sides of the Senedd backed my legislative proposals to receive age-appropriate lifesaving skills as part of their education—as learners, not as Assembly Members. I was pleased, Cabinet Secretary, that actually you were one of the Assembly Members in the previous Assembly who supported my statement of opinion on broadly the same proposals.As the Government’s preferred route at this stage is to encourage voluntary uptake, I wonder if you would either write to me, if you can’t—. Oh, if you would write to me, actually, because I suspect you might not be able to update me today, firstly on how many schools and colleges in Wales have installed defibrillators since February, and how many more schools and colleges are now providing this kind of training to learners, and how frequently any given cohort of those children and young people receive refresher training. Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Suzy. I do think lifesaving skills are crucially important to young people, and I have a particular interest in looking at the availability of defibrillators in both primary and secondary schools. And I have asked officials, actually, to do a mapping exercise for me, to find out how many of our schools currently have those facilities and where there are gaps and what opportunities there may be, working with the voluntary sector, to address that. As always, in Wales, these statistics are not centrally held, and so it is taking a little bit of time to find out who has got what, but I am very interested to find that out and to see what we can do to ensure that there is universal coverage.With regard to the place of lifesaving skills in the curriculum, you’ll be aware that one of the areas of learning and experience is health and well-being. The work on the areas of learning and experience is coming to a conclusion, before we do a deep dive into the granular nature of what will be taught, and these issues have been part of the discussions in the areas of learning and experience.

<p>Teachers’ Workloads</p>

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: 4. What plans does the Welsh Government have to reduce the pressure on teachers’ workloads in Wales? OAQ(5)0134(EDU)

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Oscar. Our aim is to build capacity and reduce excessive workload, leading to improved standards through reducing bureaucracy, improved policy delivery and better ways of working. There is no single solution to this complex issue, and it requires a multiple-stream approach, incorporating a number of separate work streams, which Welsh Government is currently undertaking.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you for the reply, Minister, but the facts are that official figures reveal that there were 275 fewer teachers employed in Wales in 2016, compared to the previous year. Also, there were 446 fewer teaching assistants. A survey by the Education Workforce Council found that more than 88 per cent of teachers said they did not think that they could handle the workload in agreed hours, and that more than a third planned to quit the profession within the next three years, and I think that’s a striking figure, Cabinet Secretary. Is it not the case that the policies you are pursuing have created a teaching profession that is overworked and disillusioned in Wales?

Kirsty Williams AC: As I said earlier in questions to Llyr, workload is a real issue for the teaching profession and is a real concern to me. We are using the data, as I said, from the workforce survey to try and refine our approaches in this area. We’re also, as I said earlier, having detailed discussions with the education workforce unions. Let me be clear on some of the things that I have done. We have established a headteachers’ advisory panel, comprising of 26 of the most highly performing heads in Wales, whom I and my officials consult on the development of new policies and implementation issues that may arise. We have established and commissioned work on specific issues, including looking at marking and assessment, which are often cited as areas that increase workload for teachers. We have commissioned specific research, such as a project being undertaken by Trinity Saint David university, which is observing and analysing school leaders’ time management, to look to see what school leaders are actually spending their time doing. Work with the consortia, local authorities and other stakeholders has been undertaken to identify and publicise best practice, for example Estyn’s myth-busting campaign. As I said, there is no single answer to this complex issue, but we are working across a number of work streams to address workload where we can.

Adam Price AC: In Finland, they have no school inspection, no league tables, no tests or exams up until the age of 16, homework per child is limited to half an hour as a maximum, and they have the most successful education system in the world. That was the model that we were meant to be adopting and yet we start testing at seven and we’ve imported wholesale the overregulated, overworked, overstressed system from the failing education system next door in England. Why?

Kirsty Williams AC: What needs to be absolutely clear—and I took the opportunity to visit Finland in January, myself, to look at education policy and practice in their schools—is that the Finnish Government are very concerned about Finland. Relative to them—it would be great if we had performance that way—but relative to them, the Finnish system is dropping down the PISA league table. It is not improving. It is not holding its own. Their performance is diminishing. Compared to ours, we would want to have those scores, but that is the reality of the Finnish system. We are looking to learn from international examples, whether that be Finland—. Officials were last week in Ontario in Canada, looking at their very successful model, and we will continue to look at best practice internationally to inform our education reforms. But let me be absolutely clear: removing all forms of accountability has landed us in the position of where we find ourselves in, and nobody—nobody—thinks that what we’re doing at the moment is good enough. We are committed to a national reform mission that is based on raising standards and raising attainment level, and we will learn from the best, wherever that may be.

<p>Welsh-medium Education in South Wales West</p>

Dai Lloyd AC: 5. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the promotion of Welsh-medium education in South Wales West? OAQ(5)0133(EDU)

Alun Davies AC: With the advent of the Welsh Government’s strategy for a million Welsh speakers by 2050, I agree that the promotion of Welsh-medium education across Wales needs to be consistent, focused and strong. We will be launching a national campaign in September.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you for that response, Minister. Following the sweeping success of the Urdd Eisteddfod in Bridgend last month, many are asking why Bridgend council aren’t doing more to promote and develop Welsh-medium education in the county. There are only four Welsh-medium primaries in the county, which is very low as compared to other authorities. Do you agree that the current situation in Bridgend is unsatisfactory? What are you doing to change that situation, particularly through the promotion of Welsh-medium education and increasing the number of young children who receive Welsh-medium education in the county?

Alun Davies AC: I definitely agree that the Urdd Eisteddfod was a sweeping success and we should congratulate all the volunteers that promoted and contributed to the success of the Urdd Eisteddfod. I believe quite a few Members visited the field and enjoyed that visit. I have asked Aled Roberts to undertake a review of all the WESPs, including Bridgend’s, and he will be reporting to me over the ensuing weeks. I will be publishing his full report once I’m able to do so. But may I say this? You were asking about Bridgend. Bridgend does demonstrate that there is ambition and vision for the future. Bridgend demonstrates that, but we must collaborate with them and with each other to ensure that they are able to attain the vision that they have set for themselves.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I welcome the question, but also the answer as well, because we must recognise that Bridgend, like others, are starting from a relatively low base in terms of Welsh provision. Certainly, in the period that I’ve represented that seat in different institutions, it has provided now a secondary education facility in Llangynwyd. There are demands from parents that it should be more central, and I understand those demands. My own children—all three of them—were fortunate to go to one of the best primary schools in the whole constituency, literally walking down their road to Ysgol Cynwyd Sant, a first-class, pure Welsh language provision and embedded in the eisteddfodau and so on. But there is more to do, without a doubt. I was at the turf-laying ceremony the other day for the new Betws primary, which will serve not only the northern valleys but also some of the central areas as well. But I want to ask the Minister: what additional support can be given to local authorities that are starting from a lower base—in advice as well—to move forward? Will he also give encouragement to those authorities that are trying to do the right thing, but they know how far they’ve got to go as well?

Alun Davies AC: I hope we can give encouragement to local authorities. The approach I’ve taken throughout the WESPs process has been to work with people rather than shout at people. I believe it’s incumbent upon all of us here, in this Chamber, to work with our own local authorities. I certainly want to work with my own local authority, in Blaenau Gwent, to ensure that they’re able to grow, and to realise their ambitions as well. I visited the only Welsh language school in Blaenau Gwent some weeks ago in order to discuss how they can improve and develop their provision. What I see, when I travel across the country, is exactly what has been described by the Member for Ogmore, which is great, deep goodwill towards the language and a wish to develop the provision of Welsh-medium education. I think that font of goodwill is something that we must all seek to encourage. The Welsh Government will certainly play its part, both in encouraging provision, encouraging parents to use that provision, and also then ensuring that the local authorities themselves have the support that they need in order to deliver on the vision that most local authorities have outlined in their own plans.

Suzy Davies AC: I think there has been a change of officials in the particular area you talk about in Bridgend recently, so hopefully we will see some improvement. But I wanted to ask you about something else. You’ve previously acknowledged the role that Wales’s businesses can play in promoting the Welsh language and, indeed, driving the call for skills, actually, and we often speak positively in this Chamber of collaboration between businesses and schools and colleges, both in influencing and, indeed, facilitating the way that the curriculum is delivered in an engaging way. Do you get any sense that, lately, businesses are perhaps keener to work with Welsh-medium schools because of the aim for 1 million Welsh speakers? Or are these collaborations still very much a local decision—good relationships between business leaders and school or college leaders—where maybe the language isn’t a consideration that’s on their agenda?

Alun Davies AC: What I see, as I’ve said in answer to Huw Irranca-Davies, is a great deal of goodwill from all parts of the community, including business, and what I hope we can do, through the publication of the strategy to achieve a million speakers by 2050, which will be published before we go on recess, is an attempt to ensure that collaboration is made real, is encouraged, is provided with support, and enables people to work together, because I think that is exactly what people want to do, in order to achieve the ambition and vision that we all share for the future of the language.

<p>Changes to the Curriculum</p>

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 6. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on future changes to the curriculum in Wales? OAQ(5)0135(EDU)

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Janet. The new curriculum for Wales will be based on the fundamental review of existing arrangements that was undertaken by Professor Graham Donaldson. The recommendations are radical, with wide-ranging implications for our education system. Work is now well under way to develop a new curriculum in response to ‘Successful Futures’.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. There are, however, around 3,000 deaf children going through our education system here in Wales unable to access learning through a British Sign Language interpreter. For many deaf children, this is an important, and often the only, means of communication during this important development phase. Deaf Ex-mainstreamers research has shown how BSL should now be included within the Welsh curriculum model. We’ve received, as a Petitions Committee, a petition signed by over 1,000 people calling for improved access to learning through BSL. Will you give some consideration to including this within any curriculum change and ensure that these children can learn equally as well as anybody else?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, Janet, I will give more than consideration, and you will know that because I answered a written question on 31 May, which confirmed to you that in developing the area of learning and experience relating to language, literacy and communications, British Sign Language was being considered alongside other languages in the development work of that particular group. It has been included. They have ben liaising with the third-sector organisations who represent children and families in this particular area, and I expect that work to be ongoing and continuing.

David Rees AC: Cabinet Secretary, last Thursday, we saw many young people taking part in the democratic process across the UK, being enthused—mainly by Jeremy Corbyn—to actually get involved and take part in their rights and have their voices heard. Will you agree with me that if this Assembly moves forward to a vote for 16 and 17-year-olds—[Interruption.] I’m disappointed that Members are not prepared to listen to an important aspect for young people. Do you agree with me that, as the Assembly moves forward and 16 and 17-year-olds have the possibility of also taking part in the democratic process here in Wales, it is incumbent on us to ensure that the new curriculum addresses political and citizenship education within it, so that they are prepared and they can be enthused and engaged—taking part and making sure that their voices are heard as well?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, Presiding Officer, I don’t think that there is anything particularly engaging or enthusing about some of the yah-boo stuff that goes on in this Chamber. What I recognise that young people are interested in is finding solutions to the problems that they face in their lives and in their communities. Equipping those young people with the ability to hold politicians to account, to scrutinise their work, and to be able to make informed choices about how they should vote is absolutely crucial to our ongoing success as a society. Politics and civic engagement is already a part of our current curriculum, under PSE arrangements. I expect politics to play a part in the humanities area of learning and experience. But, it is absolutely crucial—indeed, it is demanded of us by young people themselves—that they have access to this kind of curriculum. They know it is important, they want it, and we will deliver it for them.

<p>School Funding</p>

Mark Isherwood AC: 7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the level of school funding in Wales? OAQ(5)0137(EDU)

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Mark. Local authorities are responsible for school funding in Wales, and last year, gross schools expenditure was budgeted to be £2.5 billion overall. That is 0.9 per cent higher than in 2015-16. Local authorities delegated more than £2.1 billion of that funding to schools.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. In September 2010, the WLGA made a commitment to increase school delegation rates to 80 per cent in two years, working towards 85 per cent within a further two years—i.e. 2014. When I questioned your predecessor in March last year, he expressed his understanding that every local authority in Wales had surpassed the 85 per cent delegation rate and said that the Welsh Government had set an expectation for that to reach 90 per cent during this Assembly term. However, the 2016-17 figures published by the Welsh Government showed that 14 out of 22 Welsh local authorities were still below the 85 per cent figure, and that all of them were below the 90 per cent figure. Can you confirm what this Welsh Government’s goal is in this area, and how it proposes to close that gap?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, Mark, it is important that local authorities get as much education money, which is given to them either through the RSG or through special grants from this Government, to the front line. That’s where I expect money to be utilised—in our classrooms. I would urge local authorities again to look at ensuring that as much delegated budget is available as possible. One of the other continuing concerns that I have is that in some cases, we have high levels of reserves being held at a school level. That is usually within the primary sector, and quite often, that is held for very good reasons—if a school is looking to build up a particular reserve of money for a specific project. But, let us be clear: reserves that are held for the sake of it are not doing what that money was intended for, and that is providing opportunities for our children. So, it is incumbent upon all of us, individual schools, local authorities, consortia and, indeed, Welsh Government to get as much money to the front line as possible.

<p>Encouraging More to Read</p>

Jayne Bryant AC: 8. What progress is being made to encourage more young people to read? OAQ(5)0138(FM)

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Jayne. We recognise the importance of fostering a love of reading from an early age. Our national literacy and numeracy programme and its key policies, including the national literacy and numeracy framework and our grant-funded literacy interventions, support us in achieving this aim.

Jayne Bryant AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The big challenge for teachers is not simply getting students to read, it's getting them to enjoy it, too. English literature can ignite lifelong passion for reading. With changes to the way literacy development is measured at key stage 4, it's vital that we ensure that pupils continue to take up English literature at GCSE level. As one of my constituents, Rajvi Glasbrook Griffiths, who is a teacher, recently wrote:‘cultural literacy is one of the most powerful modes of social mobility and progress’.With this in mind, what steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that teaching English and Welsh literature continues to play an important role in inspiring and nurturing booklovers of the future, particularly for those who don't have access to books at home?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you for that. I am aware of concerns on the issue of literature in key stage 4 and that some schools have been lobbying for increased emphasis on literature in performance measures. I have already signalled that school accountability is being reviewed as part of our education reforms and our national mission to improve education standards. We introduced new programmes of study for both English and Welsh in 2015, which require all schools to teach both language and literature elements for all until the end of key stage 4. I am keeping under review entry into Welsh literature and English literature GCSEs, and I will also be asking Estyn to review school practice in the teaching of literature at both key stage 3 and key stage 4.

And finally, question 9—Lynne Neagle.

<p>Emotional Resilience</p>

Lynne Neagle AC: 9. What steps is the Cabinet Secretary taking to ensure schools in Wales promote emotional resilience in children and young people? OAQ(5)0140(EDU)

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Lynne. Promoting the emotional resilience of children and young people must be understood within the wider context of their well-being. Higher levels of well-being are linked to increased educational achievement and engagement. For that reason, we are adding ‘well-being’ as a fifth objective in the next version of ‘Qualified for Life’.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I was very grateful to you for meeting with Samaritans Cymru with me recently. As you know, they have been very, very keen on mainstreaming emotional resilience in the curriculum, and I'm sure they welcome, as I do, that you've gone further, really, in including well-being in ‘Qualified for Life’—that is very, very positive. However, as you know, I have raised previously the need for all Welsh Ministers to work together in partnership to deliver the aims of Together for Children and Young People. Are you able to provide any update on the work that you are doing to deliver your side of that partnership in terms of ensuring that we move as quickly as possible to ensuring that all schools are actively engaged in ensuring that emotional resilience is a priority?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Lynne. It is absolutely crucial. As we discussed in committee this morning, there is much that we can do to prevent difficult situations for our young people and children, but we will never, ever be able to prevent them from experiencing life's ups and downs—whether that's bereavement, whether that is the break-up, perhaps, of a significant relationship in their life, whether that is bullying, we will never be able to protect them from all the challenges that they will face, but we can help them to be more resilient and allow them to cope better when those changes happen for them. You're absolutely right; I cannot do this alone. That is why I am very keen to work alongside my Cabinet colleague here, for health, to identify what opportunities there are for joint working. Most recently, we both identified a sum of money, which we hope to be able to deploy to tackle some of these very real issues in our high schools.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Counsel General

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The next item on our agenda is questions to the Counsel General, and the first question is from Mike Hedges.

<p>World Trade Organization Rules</p>

Mike Hedges AC: 1. What assessment has the Counsel General made of the legal implications for Wales of the imposition of World Trade Organisation rules in the absence of a trade agreement between the UK Government and the EU? OAQ(5)0041(CG)

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. Officials in a newly established trade policy team are in the process of assessing the policy and legal consequences of the UK trading under World Trade Organization rules. We intend to update Members on this work over the coming months.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you for that answer. Excluding agriculture, the devaluation of the pound can remove the problem of financial tariffs. Does the Counsel General agree with me that the rules imposed, and making sure that the World Trade Organization rules are being met, is really a far greater problem than a 5 per cent or 10 per cent tariff, which further devaluation can put right? Actually meeting the rules and having to go through all the checks is going to be a greater problem for Welsh industry and Welsh exporters than having the tariffs themselves.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, obviously tariffs are of massive significance because they directly affect cost—goods crossing borders having tariffs imposed upon them. The other issue, of course, with regard to tariffs is what the level of those tariffs is, and also, particularly under World Trade Organization rules, whether there are quotas that might apply as well. But the point you make is an absolutely proper one, and that is that it is the behind-the-border barriers that are sometimes the biggest issues. That is, the compatibility of being able to trade—issues such as product certification, import licences, customs checks and so on. And of course there are all the other issues that relate to the fact that the EU has its own trade agreements, its own versions of the transatlantic trade and investment partnership with different countries, and may have new ones. Of course, part of the purpose of those is to remove some of these behind-the-border barriers, so it may actually mean that, in actual fact, agreements are being made that, whether we like it or not, we’re not party to, but we will need to comply with them in order to actually trade. So, you’re absolutely right: it is a very significant factor, and one that has to be addressed.

Mark Reckless AC: I’m not sure what country the Counsel General thinks the EU has an agreement like TTIP with, which is far broader in scope than any previous trade agreement. But is it not the case that for WTO members, even if they lack a free trade agreement with each other, there is still customs facilitation? The vast majority of our trade with non-EU countries, including the US and China, for which there is no trade agreement, progresses smoothly. Currently our exporters already meet these conformity requirements and the absence of a major free trade deal, which we would all like to see, would not of itself lead to anything like the scale of customs problems that I think Mike Hedges may have suggested.

Mick Antoniw AC: First of all, dealing with the point you make abut TTIP, well, of course, there are versions of TTIP that are already in existence, such as with Canada and other countries, all of which deal with those particular issues. Of course, they apply to the UK as long as we are a member of the European Union. Of course, the TTIP discussions with the United States of America did not progress, and now seem to have faltered, but part of their objective was to try and remove some of these behind-the-border issues. Whatever happens in respect of those agreements, if you have the European Union working to a particular standard, and those standards become part of an agreement, in order to trade with the EU, it is very likely that it will be the EU standard that we have to comply with, and we will be de facto bound by it if we actually want to trade. In terms of our position with the World Trade Organization, of course it is presented as though somehow it is an easy fallback position, a sort of default position—if things don’t work out with the EU, there’s nevertheless some sort of simple default position. That really isn’t the case, because the arrangements with the World Trade Organization are negotiated by the EU on behalf of all its members, so we would have to, first of all, extricate ourselves from the European Union and then actually set about the establishment of our own schedules of trade with the World Trade Organization. There was a very interesting quote recently in ‘The Times’ from Roberto Azevêdo, the World Trade Organization’s director general, who said: there is no precedent for extricating itself from an economic union while inside the organisation—the process would not be easy and would likely take years before the UK’s WTO position was settled, not least because all the other member states would have to agree.And, of course, one of the consequences is that while you’re going through this period of uncertainty, markets are being targeted and, as a trading nation, the UK is increasingly sidelined. The other problem is, although certain areas of trade might be relatively simple, perhaps in certain areas of manufactured goods, of course there are major problems in respect of agriculture, something which will be of massive concern to Wales, in particular, because it’s not just about tariffs, but it’s also about quotas, and synergistic quotas don’t relate to tariffs and they vary from country to country. So, I suppose the point being made is that the idea that there is somehow some simple fallback position—. It isn’t there, it doesn’t exist, and I have to say that membership of the customs union becomes more attractive the more one delves into the possibility of being bound by World Trade Organization rules.

<p>A Shared Prosperity Fund</p>

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 2. What discussions has the Counsel General had regarding the legal implications for Wales of the proposed establishment of a shared prosperity fund by the UK Government? OAQ(5)0040(CG)

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, officials are considering the matter and the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee have been preparing a report on this topic. We intend to update Members on this work over the coming months.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank the Counsel General for that response and it seems there’s work in progress going on in his department looking at this. But does he give any cognisance to the concerns that have been raised by commentators that suggest that whilst on the surface who could argue with the concept of a shared prosperity fund—it sounds immensely warm and cuddly and fair and just and everybody will have a stake in it—the dilemma here is, of course, that if this is made in Westminster, decided by Westminster, allocated by Westminster, or, alternatively, allocated according to political priorities, it could be very unfair indeed and may indeed, legally, reverse the current situation of funding to the devolved institutions. It could make it very unfair indeed. So, does he share those concerns that this approach could fundamentally change the nature of devolution and actually re-establish Westminster control over devolved funding?

Mick Antoniw AC: You make a number of very valid points. First of all, taking the concept of a shared prosperity fund, it’s unclear, when the Government talks about a shared prosperity fund, what prosperity it’s talking about, whose prosperity it is and how exactly it is going to be shared and who’s going to control that sharing. Of course, there’ve been a number of statements, and the problem with the statements that have come out is they’ve been rather contradictory, in my view, in terms of the nuances: on the one hand, that the process of leaving the EU and the great repeal Bill will result in more powers coming to this place and increased responsibility; but then, on the other hand, there is talk about increasing the unity of the United Kingdom of concepts such as no more ‘devolve and forget’. It’s very unclear exactly what that term means and it could mean that you have a situation where there are increasing areas of responsibility and increasing powers but, of course, in order to exit those responsibilities you’ll need to apply then to the shared prosperity fund, which will then determine the way in which moneys can actually be used and, effectively, be a significant drawing back of the fundamental principles on what devolution has proceeded with ever since 1997 and I think the outcome of the various referendums and commitments that have been given. So, there is a concern there and it is a matter that will need considerable clarity. I’m not quite sure how or when that clarity may emerge, bearing in mind the current situation. But I think the position of the Welsh Government is this: those areas that are the responsibility of this place, the funding that was promised should come here, and it should come here without strings attached because that is the true nature of decentralisation and devolution.

Adam Price AC: EU state aid rules are currently a reserved matter. But domestic, or UK, state aid—which is defined as any other grant or form of subsidy that doesn’t involve a distortion to trade across EU borders—is devolved. So, in removing the EU state aid framework, what’s the position of the Welsh Government? Should domestic UK state aid remain a devolved matter?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, once we have left the EU, we are in a position where there will be no state aid issues, particularly as regards the internal market within the whole of the United Kingdom. So, the question that will arise—. Well, two things will happen, I think. First of all is what might there be in respect of transitional arrangements in terms of leaving the European Union, and state aid, I would expect, to actually feature as a significant part of that.But one of the key issues that we will be concerned with will, obviously, be the issue of inter-UK trade, and what the arrangements are there. And we’ve seen already issues in terms of how aid and regional support, potential distortions of the market, have been dealt with, with regard to things like air passenger duty, whereby it’s very clear the long-standing policy that that, for example, should be devolved to Wales, and we should have the opportunity to develop air transport in the way in which it fits in within our economic model, where there is an imposed, effectively, state aid obstruction, on the grounds it would distort the internal market. It seems to me that one of the most important issues that is going to arise, in terms of post-EU discussions, is actually what the relationship is going to be between the devolved nations in terms of internal trade. So, I think you’re right to highlight it. How it will work out is very difficult to say. But, clearly, there needs to be a model that is sufficiently flexible to enable the devolved nations to pursue their economic objectives and responsibilities in a much more flexible way than probably exists at the moment.

<p>The Wales Act 2017</p>

Simon Thomas AC: 3. What discussions has the Counsel General held in relation to bringing all of the Wales Act 2017’s provisions into force? OAQ(5)042(CG)[W]

Mick Antoniw AC: Members will know that my advice is legally privileged. However, some of the Wales Act 2017 provisions are already in force, such as the provision on the permanence of the Assembly, the Sewel convention, and powers to change the Assembly’s name. Other provisions will be commenced in accordance with section 71 of the Wales Act.

Simon Thomas AC: I thank the Counsel General for his reply. And I’m not seeking legal advice on the cheap, I assure him. But I’m particularly interested in what I understand to be the powers that will come to this place for us to ban fracking. And I wondered whether the Counsel General could tell us when he expects that part of the Act to be enacted, and whether, indeed, he is aware that the Welsh Government intends to exercise those powers, in order that this Assembly can take steps to ban fracking in Wales.

Mick Antoniw AC: Okay. Well, the majority of the provisions in the Act, including the move to a reserved-powers model of devolution, are expected to come into force on what is labelled the principal appointed day. Our working expectation is that the Wales Office are working towards a principal appointed day sometime in April 2018. It’s too early to say with certainty what the precise date will be, but, of course, there is an obligation on the Secretary of State to consult with Welsh Ministers, and with the Presiding Officer, before determining that particular date. My understanding is that the Secretary of State for Wales will shortly be writing to the First Minister, and the Presiding Officer, seeking views on the designation of that particular day.

I thank the Counsel General.

3. 3. Topical Questions

The next item on our agenda is the topical questions, but no questions were tabled this week.

4. 4. 90-second Statements

So, the next item is the 90-second statements. Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Thirty-five years ago, the Falkland islands, a small British overseas territory in the south Atlantic, was invaded by Argentina. The conflict that ensued was a major episode in the protracted confrontation in the territory’s sovereignty. On 5 April 1982, the British Government sent a taskforce of over 100 vessels and 26,000 service personnel to reclaim the islands. While the conflict was fought over a relatively short two-month period, the effects of the horrors of war have had a deep cultural, political and psychological impact on both Britain and Argentina, and in particular, on the gallant servicemen and women who fought on both sides of that conflict. Of course, Welsh servicemen and women were also involved in the heart of the conflict, and the Welsh Guards paid an especially high price for their involvement, with 48 deaths and 97 casualties. As chair of the cross-party group on the armed forces and cadets in the National Assembly, I’ve been immensely pleased to be able to welcome some of those former service veterans and their families to the Senedd here today, as we commemorate the thirty-fifth anniversary of the date of the end of the war. In total, 907 were killed during the 74 days of the conflict—255 British servicemen, 649 Argentine servicemen and three islanders. It’s only right that we remember them today and that we pay tribute to all those involved in the conflict, and especially those who made the ultimate sacrifice in the service of our country.

Nathan Gill.

Nathan Gill AC: Thank you, Llywydd. On 5 June, I was devastated to hear the news of the death of my friend and colleague Sam Gould. When Sam was diagnosed with bowel cancer, his reaction was to do what he knew best: to campaign. Through his videos and social media campaign, Sam raised awareness of the symptoms of bowel cancer. His videos have been viewed by over 100,000 people, and comments and messages that we’ve received suggest that many people have found comfort from them, and the strength to go to their GP with their symptoms. Today, I am proud to join Bowel Cancer UK’s Never Too Young campaign, of which Sam was a supporter. The campaign is focusing on young people and raising awareness that you’re never too young to get bowel cancer. Sam Gould was 33 years old. In Wales each year, 2,335 people are diagnosed with bowel cancer, and nearly 1,000 people die from it, making it the second biggest cancer killer. Unfortunately, younger people often have a worse experience of being diagnosed, treated and cared for than older people. Young people also tend to have poorer outcomes: 60 per cent are diagnosed at the later stages of the disease, and 34 per cent are diagnosed in emergency care, when the chance of survival is much lower. If diagnosed at the early stage of the disease, nearly everyone survives. This drops to around 7 per cent if diagnosed at the later stage. I hope all Members will join with me to help raise awareness for the Never Too Young campaign.

5. 5. Debate Seeking the Assembly's Agreement to Introduce a Member-proposed Bill—The Autism (Wales) Bill

The next item on our agenda is the debate seeking the Assembly’s agreement to introduce a Member-proposed Bill on the Autism (Wales) Bill. And I call on Paul Davies to move the motion.

Motion NDM6304 Paul DaviesTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 26.91:Agrees that Paul Davies AM may introduce a Bill to give effect to the information included in the Explanatory Memorandum tabled on 4 May 2017 under Standing Order 26.91A.

Motion moved.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. And I’m delighted to have the opportunity to present an autism Bill to the Assembly. I’d like to put on record my appreciation to the Commission staff who have supported me in this process, and helped put together the accompanying explanatory memorandum. I’d also like to put on record my sincere thanks to the National Autistic Society Cymru for their outstanding support throughout this process, and to the wider autistic community in Wales, who have made it very clear, time and time again, that they want to see an autism Act delivered, to bring about the necessary changes to autism provision and support in Wales. Well, the Assembly is now in the position to permit or deny the delivery of an autism Bill, and I hope that Members from all parties will listen to my arguments and seriously consider giving me leave to introduce this Bill.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Paul Davies AC: At the very heart of these proposals is to ensure that the provision is there to meet the needs of the 34,000 autistic people in Wales, and also to ensure that autism is given its own statutory identity. The intention of this Bill is to secure consistent and continued provision of all autism services across Wales. At present, the current autism strategic action plan is only in place until 2020, and so there is no certainty of any continued prioritisation of the provision of autism services beyond that point. We know that in both England and Northern Ireland, there is legislation requiring those Governments to publish an autism strategy for adults, and for adults and children respectively, and I hope that Wales will join both of these countries in establishing legislation on a cross-party basis that works to deliver real outcomes for the autism community. By creating a legal requirement to publish an autism strategy via the proposed autism Bill, it will help to ensure a level of permanence in the delivery of care and support services for people living with autism across the country. This proposed Bill would fundamentally at its core ensure a continued and dedicated focus on the needs of people with autism, regardless of the colour of Welsh Governments in the future. People living in Wales with autism can be sure that regardless of the outcome of Assembly elections, the provision of autism services will continue to remain a solid priority for any incoming Welsh Government. In effect, this Bill will depoliticise the provision of autism services and ensure that it will no longer be a political issue.I’m sure all Members will agree that in order to provide effective services, health boards and local authorities need to know the extent of demand in their own local areas. I completely accept that diagnosing autism can be very complex and that it will involve multi-agency and specialist assessments that must be carried out by experts in their field of work. Currently, under the Social Services and Well-Being (Wales) Act 2014, local authorities and health boards are required to produce population assessments to assess the levels of need for care and support services in their areas. I understand that one of the core themes of these population assessments is learning disability, which should include autism. However, there are very real concerns that there is a risk that the distinctive needs of people with autism could be subsumed within the broader category of learning disabilities, meaning that the needs of autistic people go unmet once more. Therefore, this Bill is seeking to establish practices, including the collection of reliable and relevant data, on the numbers and needs of autistic children and adults, so that local areas can plan and co-ordinate the delivery of services accordingly. It’s essential that clear pathways to the diagnosis of autism are established in local areas, and that those affected by autism have access to clear, understandable information about pathways. I sincerely hope that the Welsh Government will publish a best practice diagnostic assessment pathway, including how to access assessment as well as expected waiting times between each stage of the process. It’s so important that parents and families across Wales understand the entire process of care from start to finish, so that they know exactly what they can expect at each stage, and so they are aware of what support is available.This Bill, if given leave to be introduced, would enable health boards across Wales to be accountable in law for the provision of a clear pathway for adults and children.

Simon Thomas AC: Would the Member give way?

Paul Davies AC: Yes, I will in a minute. We all know that it’s so crucial that pathways are in place for families as soon as they’ve visited their GP, as early intervention is vital in developing the right support for someone diagnosed with autism. It’s my view that any pathways established should include a basic awareness campaign, so that families really understand what services and support are available in their local communities. It’s disappointing that, in some parts of Wales, there is no clear and publicly available information on pathways to diagnosis, and so many people find it very difficult to fully understand exactly the process of diagnosis and assessment. Indeed, perhaps there’s even some scope for users of existing pathways and those living with autism to be involved in the process of creating new pathways. Of course, this leads on to the wider point that more information must be made available more generally on autism, and I note that the refreshed autism spectrum disorder strategic action plan does highlight that information, guidance and training materials are being developed through the ASD national team, and the ASD Info Wales website. But I believe it’s important that more localised information should be made available at a much more local and community level. I give way to the Member for Mid and West Wales.

Simon Thomas AC: I’m very grateful for his consideration to give way. I do support, indeed, the principle behind his Bill. I just want to return to the health board point that he was making. One of the difficulties dealing, at the moment, with strategies and plans is that the health sector has not come fully on board, and is that something that the Bill tries to address?

Paul Davies AC: Absolutely, and that’s why we need clear pathways so that people understand what services and what support are actually available, and health boards then will know what services they should be delivering in their local communities. Of course, a key aspect of this proposed Bill requires staff working with people with autism to receive autism training, and I know that this is an issue that has been raised time and time again. I want to make it clear that the work undertaken by the Welsh Government and the Welsh Local Government Association recently on this particular front is welcome, and that the measures contained in the proposed Bill seek to supplement, not to replace, these measures. It’s essential that autism training is provided to professionals working with autistic people and, where appropriate, mandated, and that should include training plans. Members will be aware that one of the difficulties that children on the autism spectrum face is making sure they get the right help at school, and so it’s important that autism is included in initial teacher training and enhanced with continuous professional development. There is scope for more to be done here with regional partnership boards, local health boards and local authorities, and any plans that are produced should also include time frames by which the effectiveness of those plans could be monitored. The introduction of a specific autism Bill could ensure that key professionals such as teachers have compulsory training in autism, which would go some way to improving the outcomes for children with autism as they develop through to adulthood.It’s absolutely essential—

Mike Hedges rose—

Paul Davies AC: Yes, I will give way.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you very much. Can I say from the start that I fully support this Bill? I may, like some other Members here, including the Member for Mid and West Wales, actually have to leave before the vote, but could I put on record my support for it? Can I also say that I think the one thing about it is that it brings clarity and it brings compulsion? I think that those are two very important things, and the danger is that you have one set of advice notes to be followed by another set of advice notes. Legislation gives you clarity and compulsion.

Paul Davies AC: Well, I’m grateful to the Member for Swansea East for his support, and I agree with everything that he has just said. Now, it’s absolutely essential to encourage co-operation between agencies and workforce training to best support those with autism in Wales. It’s my view that an autism Bill would work with the additional learning needs Bill and other wider work undertaken by the Welsh Government in this area in order to make sure that that progress is delivered. It’s my specific intention for this Bill to work alongside the work of the Welsh Government, not against it, to ensure that the autism community in Wales receives the support that it deserves. Naturally, the Welsh Government’s refreshed strategic action plan is welcome, and my intention is that my Bill would work alongside that to ensure that that provision is maintained beyond 2020.The new national integrated autism plan does a lot to provide support, advice and intervention for those living with autism in Wales, and, again, I welcome that work, particularly around tackling diagnosis for adults in Wales. I very much believe that my Bill will help strengthen that work by securing the rights of autistic people with a statutory duty. Now, I appreciate that the Welsh Government will argue that the additional learning needs and educational tribunal Bill will provide additional support to people with autism. However, the additional learning needs Bill includes support for children and young people with autism up to the age of 25. Again, whilst that is welcome, my Bill will seek to provide support to all people living with autism and make sure that services are available to all age groups.Members will be aware that there are still gaps in the provision for autism, and diagnosis times in some parts of Wales are simply far too long. In my own constituency, some children have faced a wait of up to seven years for a diagnosis, and that is simply unacceptable. Now, Hywel Dda health board did recognise that there was an issue in Pembrokeshire and it committed to putting in resources, which has led to an improvement. However, those specific resources have since been removed again, and, sadly, as a result, the improvements in diagnosis has fallen again. Whilst good practice and responsive services are evident in some areas, the local focus of the strategic action plan has meant that provision has remained inconsistent across Wales. Quite simply, there is a need to ensure that people with autism receive quality support wherever they live in Wales. Now, I appreciate that some of you have concerns about the implementation and delivery of the autism Act in England, but I want to remind you that we have an opportunity to create a bespoke Bill suited to the needs of the autistic community here in Wales, not anywhere else. It’s important to recognise good practice, whether that’s in England, Northern Ireland or anywhere else, but it’s crucial that we tailor any autism-specific legislation to address the needs of the autism community here in Wales.Of course, if I’m given leave today to take this Bill to the next stage, I will embark on a significant amount of stakeholder engagement to learn more about the particular needs of the autism community across the country and I will work with the Welsh Government to ensure that those views are appropriately addressed by this Bill. I want to make it clear today that I want to work with the Welsh Government and build on some of the good work we’ve seen in recent months. If the next 13 months prove that the Welsh Government’s ongoing work in this area is resulting in an overwhelming improvement in provision and support for those living with autism here in Wales, then I will be prepared to negotiate with the Government and reconsider the need for legislation in this area based on informed evidence.I’d also like to take this opportunity to remind Members that the call for an autism Act in Wales has not come from Assembly Members or politicians, but from the autism community itself. This would be a Bill created by the autism community for the autism community, and I believe that we owe them the right to further explore the need for that legislation to be introduced.This proposed Bill is looking to create a level playing field in access to services for autistic people wherever they live, and will put a statutory duty on local authorities and health boards to deliver those services. I hope that the Welsh Government will be open-minded to this proposed legislation, because all of us in this Chamber want the same thing: to see real and vast improvements to the provision and delivery of services in Wales. Last year, the Minister made it very clear that the door is very much open to autism legislation in Wales, and I sincerely hope that is still the case. I therefore urge Members to support this motion.

Thank you. I call on the Minister for Social Services and Public Health, Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate today and to reaffirm the Welsh Government’s strength of commitment to delivering the improvements that people with autism, their parents and their carers tell us they want to see. Since we last debated autism in this Chamber, good progress has been made. The implementation of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 has now reached its first anniversary and it is beginning to transform the way that people receive care and support. We published a new strategic action plan for autism, completely in response to what people with autism and their families told us that they wanted to see, and we’re already delivering the priorities in this plan, including investing £13 million in our new national integrated autism service, which is a real game changer in the way that we meet the needs of people with autism. As I set out in my written statement on autism at the end of November, the Welsh Government has the powers and the policy levers we need to deliver the improvements in services and support that people with autism, and their parents and carers, tell us they want to see. I have said that we’ll keep an open mind to the need for more legislation once we can assess the evidence on the outcomes of the new autistic spectrum disorder strategic action plan and the national integrated autism service. Nonetheless, I am pleased to announce today that I will, in this Assembly term, introduce statutory guidance on autism under the social services and well-being Act to underpin delivery of the strategic action plan. This will ensure that statutory bodies understand their responsibilities towards people with autism and take action to meet those needs. As the First Minister has previously stated in this Chamber, I’m exploring how we can introduce legislation to put the autism spectrum strategic action plan on a statutory footing, and I know that this goes to the heart of what Paul Davies has been speaking about in his speech today, and that Members here and people affected by autism will welcome this.I’ve already made a clear commitment in the strategic action plan to monitor the progress that we’re making. Since our last debate, I’ve established an ASD implementation advisory group, which met for the first time in March. Membership includes people with autism, their parents and carers, their representative organisations and statutory delivery organisations. This group will advise me on what’s working well and where improvements must be made. Since our last debate, I have committed to publishing an annual report that will focus on the improvements being directly experienced by people with autism and their families and carers. We want to know how their day-to-day lives are getting better and that they are receiving the support that they need. Parents are rightly concerned about waiting times for assessment and diagnosis. I am pleased to report that, through our Together for Children and Young People programme, we are making £2 million available each year to improve neurodevelopmental assessment services. We have introduced a new 26-week waiting time target from referral to first appointment, and we have already put in place a new, nationally agreed children’s assessment pathway right across Wales, so that families know what to expect when their child is referred for assessment and that there’s consistency wherever they live. The Cabinet Secretary for health and I have been very clear with health boards about the priority that the Welsh Government puts on meeting the needs of people with autism. We know that many people with autism may not be eligible for social care services, but they still have significant support needs, which, if not addressed early, can escalate. Through the new, all-age national integrated autism service, we will be supporting people living with autism and their families when they need it most. Support and advice will be available from a range of specialist professions, including speech and language therapy, occupational therapy and psychology. There will also be community workers in every local authority to support and assist with day-to-day issues. The service will provide advice and support in relation to things such as managing anxiety, social skills, daily living skills and accessing other services such as healthcare, employment support and housing. So, this service is now becoming a reality. It’s already up and running in Powys, and, over the next few months, it will be rolled out in Cardiff and the Vale, Gwent and Cwm Taf. All of the remaining regions will start developing the service this year, and I look forward to Wales being the first nation to deliver a fully national integrated autism service by 2018, a year ahead of our own original schedule.In recognition of the importance that I attach to this service, I’ve increased the funding available from £6 million to £13 million, meaning that all regions will receive funding for the rest of this Assembly term, creating a long-term and sustainable service across Wales. This is all very exciting, but I do understand the frustration felt by many families struggling to access the help that they need now. Our plans in Wales are ambitious, and, whilst many are still in the early stages of delivery, there is support available. What’s become clear to me when I’ve met with parents and carers and people with autism, is that families are not always aware of the new services being developed and the resources that they can already access. Our ASD Info Wales website is an essential source of information, and we do need all organisations supporting people with autism in Wales to play their part and work with us in raising awareness of what is on offer. Many Members will raise the issue of education in this debate. For children and young people with autism to have a positive educational experience, educational settings should provide a learning environment where they feel safe, where they’re understood by their peers, by teaching staff and by non-teaching staff, and are able to learn. Our Learning with Autism programme has proved tremendously popular in school settings, and I can announce today that it is now being adapted for further education and work-based learning settings too. Members will know that the additional learning needs transformation programme is already under way, and is delivering improvements in practice now, which will benefit learners in the current system and in the future system, as proposed by the ALN Bill. I’d like to take this opportunity to thank all people with autism and their families who are helping us deliver our new ‘Can you see me?’ campaign, to raise awareness of autism in the community. Fronted by Gethin Jones, it is being widely supported across local communities, including by businesses and local facilities such as leisure centres, showing what we can do when we work together and when we put the power in the hands of people with autism and their families. I believe that we are taking the right action to improve the current system of support for people with autism, but I also recognise that it is early days in seeing the benefits of our new, significant investment. As a result, the Welsh Government will be abstaining on Paul Davies’s proposal today, which means that the draft legislation can move ahead and will be worked on over the next year. At the same time, Welsh Government will continue to move ahead with delivering our social services and well-being Act, our ASD strategic action plan and our national integrated autism service. Paul and I have had a number of very constructive meetings on this issue, and I look forward to meeting him again to work together to further refine those milestones that we will seek to deliver over the coming months to ensure that they’re focused on the outcomes and demonstrable improvements to the lives of people with autism and their families, which we can all agree is what we all want to see. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much to Paul Davies for introducing this Bill. Plaid Cymru has been supportive of demands for legislation to safeguard and protect the rights of autistic people in Wales, as well as their families and carers—legislation that would improve the services accessed by people and would improve diagnosis. There will be a free vote on this. I certainly will be supporting the motion to introduce an autism (Wales) Bill is this initial stage, and I expect fellow Members on these benches to also do that, just as they voted in favour of the principle of an autism Bill when we discussed it here in the Senedd back in October.I have heard the comments made by the Minister that she believes that there are alternative means of introducing the kinds of changes that could be helpful. But, of course, she was aware that there was some disappointment that Labour and the Liberal Democrats had voted against the Bill at that point. Also, to put this on the record, if I may, I understand that one Cabinet Secretary has told a local newspaper in her constituency in Wrexham that she cannot support this today and that she has to abstain because of the fact she is a Minister.Fe ddyfynnaf o’r erthygl honno:Fel sydd bob amser yn wir gyda Biliau Arfaethedig Aelodau,meddai,nid yw Ysgrifenyddion Cabinet a Gweinidogion Llywodraeth Cymru yn gallu bwrw pleidlais ac felly byddaf yn ymatal.Nid yw hynny’n gywir mewn gwirionedd, nac ydy? Oherwydd mae gennyf restr yma o’r holl Weinidogion Llywodraeth a bleidleisiodd yn erbyn Bil Arfaethedig Aelod Dai Lloyd ynglŷn â diogelu enwau lleoedd hanesyddol yng Nghymru.In terms of what’s being proposed here, the additional learning needs Bill will improve support and provision for individuals in education, but we need something for individuals outwith education too. On occasion, people don’t receive a diagnosis until they are adults, and support needs to be available for people of all ages. I fear that the positive momentum of the Welsh Government’s autism strategy has declined a little. There are cases now across Wales where the strategy doesn’t seem to be working for autistic people and their families, and is leaving some with little or no support, and they then can’t live the life that they would choose and deserve to live. That’s why I agree that we need legislation.I welcome the objective in the Bill to provide a clear pathway to diagnosis for autism locally, because we know that the provision is inconsistent across Wales and that diagnosis is so important. As one autism advocate told me in north Wales this week:Ni wnaeth cael diagnosis gael gwared ar fy awtistiaeth yn wyrthiol, ond rhoddodd ddealltwriaeth ddyfnach i mi a chaniatâd i gymryd amser i ddeall fy hun.I also welcome the objective to gather reliable and relevant data, because, without this information, it’s very difficult for local authorities to plan appropriately for the support required by families and adults on the autistic spectrum. I know that, in the past, an autism group in Anglesey had been worried that funding seemed to be provided on a population basis rather than on a needs basis. We need the data in order to get to the heart of that problem.I also agree with the objectives on ensuring that staff are given training on autism, and that local authorities and health boards do understand the necessary steps to providing timely support, in order to ensure that individuals and authorities have the understanding to support people on the spectrum. The behaviour of individuals with autism can be complex and difficult to understand, so it’s important that that training is available.To conclude, one other issue that we in Plaid Cymru certainly want to tackle is the prejudice against people on the autism spectrum. Unfortunately, there is prejudice often from employers and that often holds people back from obtaining jobs that they are more than able to carry out. A recent survey by the autism society showed that only 1 in 10 autistic adults were in employment. That is entirely unacceptable. When we discussed the autism Bill in the Senedd in October, Bethan Jenkins referred to a number of cases of prejudice in schools too, and the impact that that has on children and their parents. So, to conclude, and in thanking you for bringing forward this legislative proposal, I will ask whether that is something that the Member considered in introducing the Bill—does he feel that the proposed Bill does deal with that issue or is there something further that we could be doing on that particular issue?

Lynne Neagle AC: I’m pleased to make a brief contribution in this debate today. I was grateful to the National Autistic Society Cymru for meeting with me after the last time we discussed this. Their passion and also their palpable frustration on behalf of the families they support was really powerful and made a very big impression on me. I am also aware from my own casework of the battles that families often face to get a diagnosis and then to ensure that the support they need is in place. It is on that basis that I will be voting for this Bill to proceed today. I do, as Paul knows, have reservations about the approach of legislating for a particular condition, as I believe that legislation like the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 and the ALN Bill that’s currently going through the Assembly should, if they are working correctly, deliver for all our citizens on the basis of need. I think we do need to consider as well the implications of such a precedent going forward, as services for people with autism is not the only area where there is an urgent need for service improvement, in my view. I also think that if this goes forward it is essential that we fully consider any unintended consequences of legislating on a particular condition, and that we explore any risk that such legislation may impact on our ability to respond to others on the basis of need, and I am thinking in particular here of other children who need prompt access to CAMHS.However, I do think that this Bill is very worthy of further consideration and I hope that, if it proceeds today, it will provide a major impetus for service improvements in this area. I welcome the constructive approach taken by Paul Davies and his opening remarks, and also the positive comments of the Minister, who I know has a particular commitment to deliver in this area. What we all want is to ensure that families get the support that they need, and I hope that, if this Bill proceeds today, it will be a major step forward in that direction. Thank you.

Mark Isherwood AC: On 21 January 2015, I led an individual Member’s debate here that called on the Welsh Government to introduce an autism Act for Wales, and Members voted in favour. Eight months ago, I led a non-partisan debate recognising the need for specific legislation for autism and calling on the Welsh Government to bring forward an autism (Wales) Bill during the fifth Assembly term. Its defeat, on party lines, caused huge distress, and I pray that we can move beyond this today and deliver, at last, for the autism community in Wales. I therefore thank my colleague Paul Davies for bringing forward proposals today to ensure that autism has a proper statutory identity in Wales and that services for people with autism meet their real needs.Although autism is neither mental health nor learning difficulty, people with autism fall between two stools as there’s nowhere else to go. There are serious concerns that the Welsh Government’s refreshed strategy isn’t robust enough to make the changes we all want to see unless backed by legislation. Placing specific duties on local authorities and health boards would provide greater clarity on the care and support that people with autism can expect. Online resources for the autism community, training films for front-line professionals, and national autism service flowcharts are all well and good, but the autism community won’t receive the support they know they need until there is statutory underpinning and accountability and we move beyond consultation to a direct role for professional and third sector bodies and the autism community in design, delivery, and monitoring.Attended by autism community members from across Wales, the packed November 2014 meeting of the Assembly cross-party autism group voted unanimously in favour of calling for an autism Act. We heard that the strategy promised to deliver so much, but people are being pushed into further crisis, that people are let down and angry that they have to fight so hard to get the support they need, and that it’s important that people with autism are no longer invisible to services.Although the Welsh Government have said that not one response to its refreshed autistic spectrum disorder strategic action plan consultation document asked for an autism Act, this wasn’t part of the consultation or questions. In fact, the response by the National Autistic Society Cymru, written with input from their branch members across Wales, said that statutory backing to the strategy, combined with much closer measurement of progress to meet the key aims of the strategy, is vital in securing the change that we all want to see for autistic children and adults and their family members. I represent a large number of constituents in the autism community fighting the system to get the services needed by them or their loved ones. This was summarised in an e-mail I received this week, which said, ‘My 11-year-old son has been diagnosed with autism and, at this moment, he doesn’t get the backing and support he needs. Your vote for the Bill could make all the difference to his future and others like him.’As the autistic women’s empowerment project told the cross-party autism group, which I chair, the different presentations of autism in women and girls suggest that the accepted ratio of five boys to one girl should actually be a lot closer, where many females are left undiagnosed, misdiagnosed, or without support. As the parents of several daughters have told me personally, statutory bodies don’t understand that thinking has changed, that autism presents differently in girls, and that many females are unable to access a diagnosis due to stereotyped views, leaving autistic girls and women vulnerable to low self-worth, anxiety, depression, and self-harm. Too often, parents are then forced to pay for private autism assessment. A 2017 letter from the health board said that Flintshire CAMHS, quote, ‘had raised concerns about the rigour and conclusions in a number of private assessments’, and in some cases didn’t accept the diagnosis, and that there was a requirement for these to be in line with NICE guidelines. But when I referred this to the doctor who had carried out these assessments, she responded that she was in fact a contributor to those very NICE guidelines. This single example illustrates a wider institutional problem and why Wales needs an autism Act to meet the needs of children and adults with autism-spectrum conditions in Wales, and to protect and promote the rights of both adults and children with autism in Wales. Thank you, Paul.

Leanne Wood AC: I’d like to thank Paul Davies for bringing forward this Bill today. Plaid Cymru stood, in the last Assembly election, on a manifesto that called for legislation to protect and promote the rights of people with autism, their families and their carers, and this proposal would do exactly that. So, I’ll be voting in favour of the proposal, and I hope that it’ll pass today so that the Member can table a Bill with the support of this Assembly. Like the previous speaker, I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve met parents with despair, who’ve battled to get services for their children and haven’t been able to. Surely it’s the role of Government to make sure that everyone can play a full part in society—too many people are prevented from doing do at the moment. Too many people feel as though our society is not designed to fit them. Now, I accept that a full inbox isn’t always a guide to what’s right and wrong, but it can be an indication as to what is important, of what matters to citizens in Wales. And, like many others in this Chamber, I have received a lot of correspondence, as well as social media lobbying, calling for legislation on this issue. There is a great demand from people with autism and their family members to see autism recognised in specific legislation. I take on board the points that Lynne Neagle made in her contribution. I do think we need to consider unintended consequences, but I do think that this is something that we do need to proceed with.People understand the differences between services and legislation, and they understand that services are more likely to get the resources and attention that they deserve if there is a statutory duty in place. When legislation like this has been put forward in the past, promises of improved services have been made by the Welsh Government. The proposed Bill could be the vehicle to deliver on those improvements. It could be the way to make sure those kinds of promises are kept. Depending on what happens in later stages, the Bill could ensure that local authorities and health boards draw up strategic plans for services and make them provide sufficient resources. The strategic action plan introduced in 2008 was groundbreaking, and the proposal here recognises that. So, this isn’t about criticising previous Welsh Governments, but there are, no doubt, continuing gaps in provision—as there are, of course, as others have said, with so many other conditions. The legislation itself should lead to improved services, but the symbolism of legislation is also important. Legislating on this would send a message about our priorities as a country. It would show that we care about all of those children and adults for whom society doesn’t quite fit. It would tell parents, families, and carers that people with autism matter, and that we will recognise and protect their rights.Approving this proposal would be a strong endorsement from this Senedd, but it must be followed through as well. For too long, people on the autism spectrum have been prevented from living their lives to the full. By backing this legislation, we will be taking just one small step towards a society where everyone has true equality of opportunity. I’m more than happy to add my voice to those others today in urging Members of all parties to endorse the principles of an autism Bill. And I commend the Member for his proposal today and I look forward to supporting it. Diolch yn fawr.

Michelle Brown AC: I’d like to thank Paul Davies for bringing this motion, and I support the Member’s motion to introduce an autism Bill. I doubt that anyone here would disagree with the principle that the rights of people with autism should be protected and promoted. The clearest and most effective way to do that is by legislation, and it’s a great pity that the Minister will be abstaining on this motion today. Introducing legislation sends out the message to public bodies and others, including autistic people, that their Government is serious about the needs of autistic people. It is a way to change behaviours in the same way that the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 changed behaviours in the workplace. An autism (Wales) Act would place a focus on people affected by autism and incentivise local authorities and health boards to give greater priority to them. Yes, we need to be wary of legislating for legislation’s sake, but I do not think this is the case here.The proposed Bill seeks to place on a legal footing strategies and pathways to diagnosis and meeting the needs of autistic people. An autism Bill would complement the additional learning needs Bill, which addresses the support needed in the education system by people with autism and other conditions. Indeed, it seems illogical and contrary to place into law the good principles of the ALN Bill in the education setting, but not to do the same in respect of specific conditions like autism in other settings. After all, children and young people with autism do not leave it at the school or college gate at the end of each day or when they complete education.However, I am wary of imposing further duties on local authorities and health boards when they may well not have the infrastructure or resources to comply, leading to cuts in other areas. Such duties should therefore be primarily on Welsh Government or, alternatively, upon local authorities and health boards with a corresponding duty on Welsh Government to ensure that local authorities and health boards are given the resources they reasonably need to comply with their new duties. It is vital, particularly where there are limited funds available, to properly apply that funding where it is needed. To do that, you need accurate and reliable data and a proper analysis to map service provision onto likely demand. It should be obvious to everyone here that if you do not possess reliable data about how many people are affected by autism, the likely level of need and the distribution of people with autism across Wales, any service planning is going to be basically down to guesswork.Legislation would provide the impetus for local authorities and health boards to review and improve their data collection, although I sincerely hope they’re already doing this. Introducing an autism (Wales) Bill would underpin the provision of support for autistic people. I’m sure that people with autism, their friends, families and support workers will be closely watching the result of the vote on this motion at the end of today to see how high on the priority list their Assembly Member puts them. I urge the Members of this Assembly to vote in favour of this motion. Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: Can I add my thanks to Paul Davies for bringing this legislation forward, and for the consensual way in which he’s engaged in developing the proposal to date? I think there is a consensus in this National Assembly that more needs to be done to help families with autism. And can I say that I agreed with much of what Leanne Wood said? I hope that we can all focus on what we can agree on and resist the temptation to score points.Since we debated this last year, I have met with the National Autistic Society, I’ve met with the integrated autism service, with families, with professionals, with Paul Davies and with the Minister, and I am persuaded that legislation is an appropriate way to go forward. It is clear that the Welsh Government has made progress, and significant money has been invested, and even though there is still some way to go for this to be fully rolled out, I think it is fair to say, at this early stage, that it’s likely that further action is going to be required because of the nature of the systemic culture change that’s required to properly recognise the range of challenges that people with autism face. I’ve heard stories of the delays in referrals for assessment, delays once on the waiting list, delays in decisions, a lack of signposting once diagnosed and, in my own area, concerns of the lack of a paediatric consultant in Hywel Dda health board. Those are all fair and reasonable concerns, and I was pleased to hear the Minister say that she’s willing to put the autism strategy on a statutory footing. I think that is an important start, though I think it is unlikely to be sufficient. I do, however, have some concerns. I’m nervous about taking an approach where we legislate for each condition. I think Lynne Neagle was right to raise that earlier. That does set a precedent that we should be cautious about. I’m also nervous about picking one particular condition when there are baskets of conditions that are related, that have similar symptoms and that affect a similar number of people, but don’t have a well-organised and vocal campaign group behind them. I must congratulate the National Autistic Society for the campaign that they have run. It has been a campaign fuelled by an understandable frustration, and at times, that has made itself clear. But we are policy makers and representatives, and we have a responsibility to look beyond the interests of those who shout the loudest. There are similar conditions, and the Welsh Government has recognised this principle in its diagnostic strategy. We have, in Wales, a neurodevelopmental diagnostic assessment pathway that acknowledges the principle that there are related conditions and families who are suffering who deserve a similar approach. I think we would be well served to take a similar approach in drawing up legislation. Why should it be that one type of neurodevelopmental condition gets specific legislation and others do not? I think that that is a question that deserves an answer. I had a tweet this morning from somebody who said:‘None of these conditions come on their own. My son is dyspraxic with a touch of Aspergers. Support; negligible, had to fight all the way.’ I think it would be wrong to have legislation that picks on just one condition and ignores the suffering and the struggle and the pain of families who are also suffering and who also face inadequate services. So, today, I will be supporting taking this legislation forward to the next level, but I do it with the proviso that that support may not be forthcoming for future stages unless we address these concerns that I have. I would say to the points made about abstentions that, when someone abstains, they let something go through. That is not the same as opposing something. In particular, I must single out the Minister, Rebecca Evans, who has a background in this field. Autistic families have no greater friend, in my experience, than Rebecca Evans. There may be a debate in this Chamber about how best we support families, but let there be no question mark that we think families need more support and deserve more support. So, I think it is unfortunate to criticise those who are abstaining today, while the details of this proposal are still fleshed out. So, I hope that we can go forward in a unified fashion. I think that the point that Leanne Wood made is that we need to bring about a culture change that underpins how people with autism matter. That’s the challenge for us all, and the debate now needs to be had on the detail of how we best do that. I shall be voting in favour.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Everyone in this Chamber will agree with the objective of this Bill. This Bill makes provisions for meeting the needs of children and adults with autism spectrum conditions. It protects and promotes the rights of some 34,000 people living with autism in Wales. In fact, many autism sufferers do not receive the support they need to help them to get into life. They face challenges when they try to access employment, education, health, housing and other services in life. This makes it increasingly difficult to lead independent lives for those people. The Welsh Government has recognised this and published its refreshed autism spectrum disorder strategic action plan—it’s a bit of a long one, Deputy Presiding Officer, but that is the plan they have issued. But, many believe that statutory backing is required to secure the change that we all want to see in this country. An autism Act for Wales would provide that statutory backing, protect the rights of autistic people and raise awareness of complex conditions, which is a necessity here. With a focus on giving autism greater recognition, the law could ensure timely diagnosis through statutory means and regular data reviewing. It would ensure access to services and support for people living with the condition, whether adults or children. An Act would also ensure that public services provided operate with support for autistic people and their families in mind. It would place a duty on society to better accept and understand autism and would provide real opportunity for autistic people to reach their full potential in life.With a legislative commitment to regularly review the progress of services, people with autism can expect a consistent level of care from service providers. Sadly, this has not always happened in the past. The lack of understanding about autism is not just present among the general public; it also exists among some professionals in our public services. From education to health services, families and adults with autism are not adequately supported as a result of poor understanding. Local authorities are unaware of how many autistic people are living in their areas, which makes it problematic to plan for appropriate support for those families and those people. Parents and carers often go through a distressing experience prior to obtaining a referral due to this lack of understanding.There are huge inconsistencies in referral-to-assessment waiting times. A consultation conducted by ASD Info Wales found that 19 per cent of families with potential referrals had been referred for assessment within six months of concern first being raised, but 22 per cent waited over four years. The duration of diagnostic assessment also greatly varies, from less than six months for some families to more than two years for others. Some families received a diagnosis from just one clinician—

Joyce Watson AC: Will you take an intervention?

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Yes, go on then.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you very much for taking the intervention. I share some of the things that you were talking about, and I hope that you will join me in welcoming the statutory footing that the Minister has talked about and the additional funding. I just want to put on the record that I will be supporting this today; I think that Paul has had the right approach in his conciliatory manner, which he always employs when he does things.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you, Joyce.Some families received a diagnosis from just one clinician, while others were seen by five or more. We need greater training for school staff to be able to support children with ASD. Not all schools are able to accommodate specialist needs. In England, continual professional development exists for teachers in order that they fully understand them. This needs to be done in Wales also. Transition support from child services to adult services is routinely problematic. Life skills support is scarce, and employment and housing needs are not met. Deputy Presiding Officer, the experience of the autism Act in England shows that real improvement can be achieved in improving the life of autistic people. Joint working with providers can ensure services are better planned and delivered. I believe an autism Act in Wales will do the same. I support this motion today, and I commend it. Thank you.

David Rees AC: I think, this afternoon, we’ve seen that, like most Members across the Chamber—Leanne Wood, Lynne Neagle, Mark Isherwood—have highlighted, we all receive many representations from families who have children or siblings living with ASD. They often come into our offices angry, stressed, anxious, exhausted, and sometimes holding back tears, as they explain the hardships they’ve experienced in trying to get a simple request of support for their children or loved one. Last October, during the previous debate, I stressed that it was critical that the Welsh Government and all other public bodies supported these families, who, on a daily basis, face many challenges, and not to allow barriers to exist to that support. These families tackle these challenges to the best of their abilities for their loved ones, and our job is to provide mechanisms that help them and to offer support, and definitely not to increase their hardships. The families keep on telling me of their anger and frustration at still having to argue and demand support for their children or siblings, to get the support and care necessary to help those who are living with ASD, and to progress and improve their well-being.We are all aware that autism is a lifelong disability that affects how people both perceive the world and interact with others, and I'm pleased that Paul Davies's Bill will actually reflect upon not just the children that we often talk about, but adults as well. I want you to therefore know that the bulk of our casework focuses on children, but let’s not forget the challenges that adults face with ASD. Many have difficulty in the transition period into adulthood, often facing a cliff edge, in regards to the support they’ve had as a child coming to an end at the age of 18.And, simultaneously, they are looking into the world of work, and the challenges of getting into employment. They don’t want to be a lifelong recipient of welfare benefits. They actually want to get into work, they want to make their own way, and want to improve their lives. However, as they come across the new challenges, they need to understand that we can offer support to both the individual, but also to the employer as well—and Paul Davies mentioned the training. We need to look at expanding the training areas, to consider that aspect as well, so that the transition into adulthood becomes a bit smoother for them, and not so fearful and frightening, which has been for so many in the cases.And, yesterday evening, I was at the event hosted by Jane Hutt, in the Senedd, where Andrea Wayman of Elite Employment Agency spoke of her work, which is a charity that helps people into employment. And she highlighted one example—how it works for young people; how she had one-to-one support for a young man who had autism, and that one-to-one support allowed him to develop in the workplace, in the work placement, and build the confidence that was required. And, as such, that young person then got into work and gainful employment. That is also an important aspect we must not ignore.Minister, I know you’ve highlighted the actions being taken by the Welsh Government—the introduction of the 2008 strategy, the update of that strategy, the refreshed delivery plan, and the introduction of the integrated national autism services: £13 million; I did put £7 million, but it said £13 million—all wonderful. They are all positive—there’s no doubt about that—but as Paul Davies highlighted, progress is patchy and slow. It’s essential that we ensure such a strategy is consistently delivered by local authorities and health boards, and is providing the best possible services and support for people living with ASD. And I’m afraid I’m not seeing that on the ground, nor the families. The delivery plan, and the introduction of the integrated service, of the Welsh Government are good, but when families don’t experience that delivery in their communities, then we need to take further action.I have sought clarification from my own authority on its autism strategy, and the identification of its autism champion, and, unfortunately, that clarity is slow in coming forward. This cannot be allowed to continue, and we must put in place requirements, and therefore, perhaps, the need for legal duties, on public bodies, to both prepare strategies for autism services and have due regard for those strategies when performing their responsibilities.Now, I’m aware that various pieces of legislation have been introduced that may help. We also saw referrals to the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 and the additional learning needs Bill, which is currently going through the Assembly. The question that arises is: are they delivering for these families? And will this new Bill support that existing legislation, and improve the plight of these families? And it’s our duty to ask that question. And if we conclude that such a Bill is needed to make the situation better for families on the ground, then we should introduce a statutory obligation that will hold people to account, which will have them act upon it, and which will allow us and families to hold those bodies to account.And I accept there are other conditions that are important, that should be sitting alongside autism, and perhaps, in the intervening time, Paul Davies may wish to look at whether it is possible to expand the Bill, to introduce a Bill that covers all neurodevelopment conditions. And I’m sure that it’s time that we do that.Now, this afternoon, I will be supporting this motion and I will be looking forward to the delivery of its ambition, and its offer of improvements to those who live with autism spectrum conditions. It’s important that we legislate for a purpose, and that any legislation will improve the lives of those it targets in Wales. And I will support and look forward to that happening.

Bethan Sayed AC: I don’t intend to speak for very long, but I firstly just wanted to thank the campaigners for all your hard work, and it shows that people power does really work. And I don’t think you should undermine the fact that campaigners are doing this for a very real purpose, regardless of the fact that there might be other neuromuscular diseases that warrant that law. Why not legislate for those when we do have those campaigners who come and knock on our doors in the future? So, thank you very much for your tenacity and for your perseverance in this.I also think it’s important to thank Mark Isherwood for chairing the cross-party group for all these years. Sometimes, when we chair cross-party groups, we often do it looking in on ourselves, and we carry on regardless of what other politicians are doing, and I think you deserve to have that praise here today, Mark, as well. Paul, obviously I’m glad that you’re able to take this forward, and I’m sure, as you’ve heard from people here today, that you have that support, and you have my support, of course.I go back to the quote that I used in the last debate, when I did a cross-party hustings before I was elected again, and the lady in the audience said, ‘I find it harder to fight the system than I do to deal with my son’s condition day-in, day-out.’ And if we have to hear that as politicians, then that is reason, if anything, to vote ‘yes’ today—not to abstain, to let it through, but to vote ‘yes’, as a matter of principle. That’s what I would urge the Government Ministers to do, because that shows the people in this room who have bothered to come down here today, to listen—

Lee Waters AC: You’re playing to the gallery now.

Bethan Sayed AC: No, I am not playing to the gallery. I’m speaking based on what I’ve experienced in my constituency, and the level of support for this that you can see here today. And if Government Ministers can see that, they should support that Bill. And in answering your question with regard to other conditions, I believe, having consulted the GP next to me before I stood up, that Asperger’s will be part of autistic legislation.

Lee Waters AC: But what about any other condition?

Bethan Sayed AC: Well, okay, we can have a back and forth here—

No, you can’t—

Bethan Sayed AC: [Continues.]—you are supporting the Bill, I’m supporting the Bill. Working on this consensus, perhaps—. I’m not doing it just to get a clap, I’m doing it because I care about the people who have come here today and are bothering to care about these issues. I have somebody on a waiting list for two and a half years for the interim diagnosis of global development delay, waiting in my constituency for that diagnosis. They do not deserve to wait any longer for that diagnosis, and if this legislation can do anything, it is to make that change a reality for them in their everyday lives, not for us sitting making policy—in their everyday lives. So, please support this Bill.

Thank you very much. I call on Paul Davies to reply to the debate.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. And can I thank Members for their contributions this afternoon? We’ve heard some very useful and thoughtful contributions on an issue that is very important, given the sheer volume of people affected by autism in Wales, and I apologise from the outset that I will not be able to refer to everyone’s comments, given the time available to me. Now, we’ve heard some concerns about whether there is a need for primary legislation to tackle the gaps and inconsistency in provision across Wales. I just want to reiterate that this Bill intends to work alongside Welsh Government strategies and policies, not against them. Rwy’n ddiolchgar i’r Aelod dros Ynys Môn am ei gefnogaeth ac am dynnu sylw at grŵp awtistiaeth Ynys Môn, sydd yn poeni am fel mae’r data yn cael eu casglu a pha mor bwysig yw hynny. Ac i ateb ei bwynt e ynglŷn ag a fyddwn i’n barod i ehangu’r Bil, wel, rwyf eisiau sicrhau fy mod i’n barod i edrych i ehangu’r Bil os yn bosib, a byddaf i yn ymgynghori’n eang gyda chi, a chyda rhanddeiliaid, i wneud yn siŵr bod y Bil yma mor effeithiol ag sydd yn bosib.I’m grateful to the Member for Torfaen for her support, and I understand her reservations about specific legislation. I want to reassure her that I will review the situation over the next 13 months if sufficient progress is being made. I also understand the Member for Llanelli’s reservations about concentrating on one specific condition, and I want to reassure him that I’m more than happy to look at widening the Bill to include other neurodevelopmental conditions, if possible, and that’s something I will be consulting on, should this Bill be given permission to advance to the next stage. I’m also grateful to David Rees for his support, and he makes a very valid point, I think, about the support people with autism need in getting into employment, and that’s something, hopefully, this Bill will help with. Now, we’ve also heard some criticism of the plans brought forward in England, and, so, I’ll say again that we have an opportunity here in Wales to look at other legislatures, learn lessons and create a Bill that is bespoke to the needs of the Welsh autism community. I have no intention of delivering a cut-and-paste job, should this Bill proceed to the next stage. Indeed, my intention is to work closely with the Welsh Government, local stakeholders and those living with autism, to develop a Bill that not only recognises that many people still do not receive the services and support they need, but secures consistent and continued provision for all autism services, regardless of where they live in Wales. And I’m confident that should this proposed Bill proceed to the next stage, I can work with the Welsh Government and the autism community in Wales to establish a piece of legislation that addresses the gaps in provision. I’m also confident that we can deliver a Bill that meets the needs of those living with autism in Wales and truly ensure that their voices are being heard loud and clear. It’s crucial that we create a Bill that gives autism its own statutory identity, and sends a clear message that the provision of autism services will always be a priority for any Welsh Government, regardless of its political colour or make-up.And in responding to the Minister, can I thank her for the constructive dialogue we’ve had on this matter, and can I thank her officials for engaging with me? Of course, I’m disappointed that the Minister has indicated the Government will abstain on today’s motion, but I accept that this will still provide an opportunity for today’s motion to go through. However, I’m pleased that the Minister has announced today that the Government will look at putting the action plan on a statutory footing, and I would urge her to take action now so that families living with autism can access the services they need, today and in the future. Therefore, in closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, today the Assembly has an opportunity to send a strong message to the autism community in Wales that its voice is being heard loud and clear. Calls have consistently been made for an autism Bill, and now is the time for this Assembly to step up to the plate, and give the autistic community the support it deserves. I urge Members to support this motion.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. Therefore, I defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

6. 6. Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Hepatitis C

The next item is on the agenda is a debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21, and I call on Julie Morgan to move the motion—Julie.

Motion NDM6311 Julie Morgan, Hefin David, Dai Lloyd, Angela Burns, Mark Isherwood To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Congratulates the staff in the NHS in Wales for treating and curing an unprecedented number of patients with Hepatitis C.2. Calls on the Welsh Government to confirm their commitment to the World Health Organisation eradication date of 2030.3. Calls on the Welsh Government to consider new operational guidelines to support the NHS to work towards the eradication of Hepatitis C in Wales.

Motion moved.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, for calling me to move this very important motion, supported by Hefin David, Dai Lloyd, Angela Burns and Mark Isherwood.We have started out on a journey in Wales in the last two years to identify and treat everyone who has the blood-borne virus hepatitis C. In this motion today, we are calling on the Welsh Government to reconfirm its commitment to eradicate hepatitis C in Wales by 2030, the date set by the World Health Organization. And we’re congratulating the NHS doctors and nurses for the work that they’ve already done towards treating and curing an unprecedented number of people with hepatitis C. We’re also calling for new operational guidelines to be considered by the Welsh Government that will help NHS medical staff in this difficult task. Great progress has already been made in enabling equitable and transparent access to new medicine in an affordable and responsible way. The new treatments are approved by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence and the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group and are cost-effective. All patients in Wales are now able to access the new highly effective antiviral drugs, and, in fact, there has been a cure rate of 95 per cent, which is so encouraging. The work is being led by the blood-borne virus group, and I’d like to pay tribute to them and to Dr Brendan Healy, who is the lead consultant. He said: ‘I’m really proud to be able to represent such an amazing team. The work and effort they have put in is phenomenal’. My contact with this group, I think, does really show the NHS at its very best. Hepatitis C is a blood-borne virus that affects the liver. Eighty per cent of people who are infected develop chronic hepatitis C, which can cause fatal cirrhosis and liver cancer if untreated. The estimate is that 240,000 people are chronically infected with hepatitis C in the UK, and about 12,000 of these are in Wales. But the exact figure is unknown because there are so many people who have it, but don’t know that they have it. And we know that it particularly affects people from disadvantaged communities; almost half come from the poorest fifth of society. Hepatitis C is transmitted though contact with infected blood. And it is true that the majority become infected after injecting drugs. The latest figures from the Hepatitis C Trust show that 50 per cent of injecting drug users in Wales have hepatitis C. But the virus also affects those who could possibly have had overseas medical care, and people who have had a blood transfusion in the UK before 1991, which, of course, include haemophiliacs, as I know from my work as chair of the cross-party group on haemophilia and contaminated blood. In many ways hepatitis C is a hidden disease because people can live without symptoms for decades after infection. I think we all know of the case of Anita Roddick, who founded The Body Shop, because she only discovered she had hepatitis C in 2004. She contracted it through a blood transfusion after giving birth to her daughter in 1971. So, she was actually living with this disease for 30 years without knowing it, and she died from a complication of liver disease in 2007. I am very proud of the progress we have made so far in Wales thanks to the Welsh Government’s leadership and funding. The 2015 liver disease action plan set out a plan to eradicate hepatitis C, alongside treating other types of liver disease. A huge breakthrough came in September 2015, when the finance Minister, Jane Hutt, agreed the funding of £13.8 million for new, interferon-free drugs sofosbuvir, Harvoni and AbbVie. The funding was used to treat 466 of the most seriously ill patients with hepatitis C, and 432 were cured, including members of the haemophilia community in Wales. This has made an absolutely huge impact on these people’s lives, and the haemophiliacs have in fact been treated with the new drugs ahead of their counterparts in England, some of whom are still waiting to get help.One example of a Welsh patient is David Thomas, who is a constituent of the Cabinet Secretary and is a member of the cross-party group on haemophilia and contaminated blood. He contracted hepatitis C through contaminated blood when he was a teenager in the 1980s and lived with it for 30 years, but was one of the first to have treatment with the new drugs, which have absolutely transformed his life, lifting a massive cloud, as he said. So, obviously, one of the challenges now is to convince people to come forward again for treatment for hepatitis C who may previously have had failed treatment using the interferon drugs. I welcome the fact that health boards now have £25 million a year that allows 900 people a year to be tested over five years. We must ensure that that money is used to fund all the associated costs of doing this. More than 700 people were treated in 2016-17, but I understand that the problem now is finding the people who need to be tested at this point. There are currently no waiting lists for treatment. The funding and the drugs are there, but we need to identify the 50 per cent of people who have got hepatitis C but don’t know it. The other great challenge we face in trying to eradicate hepatitis C is to reach people who are unaware of the virus because they may not be regulars at their GP surgery. As I’ve said, 50 per cent of people who have the virus are undiagnosed, according to the Hepatitis C Trust. Other groups that may be at risk of this are gym users who take performance-enhancing drugs; drug users with hepatitis C; prisoners who get tested during their sentence and may not get the results in time for their release; asylum seekers, migrants and homeless people. Everyone working on eradicating hepatitis C says that one of the biggest problems is the stigma that is attached to it, and I’m very pleased that there’s going to be a public awareness raising campaign that will be launched in Wales here in the Assembly on 11 July.One way of tackling the lack of awareness and stigma around hepatitis C is by using peer mentors, which have proved very successful. We also need a programme to educate other health professionals about hepatitis C, not just members of the public, because it’s very important that GPs pick up on the signals and recommend testing and refer people for treatment. There is need for more health professionals to have training. Pharmacies need national agreed targets and training in dried-blood-spot testing. Community pharmacies could play a major role, as well as drug outreach projects and needle exchange centres. All the people involved in treating this blood-borne virus agree that tackling the issue in the community where they live is the key. There are lots of examples of how this is done: for example, they are testing asylum seekers and people in accident and emergency in Cardiff; in Tesco at Fforestfach in Swansea, there is a community testing room next to a gym, so gym users are getting tested; and there’s a form to improve patient management and collect data automatically that is being developed in Cardiff and in other centres. The motion also calls for new operational guidelines to be considered to support NHS staff working to eradicate hepatitis C. We need to streamline the paperwork involved. We need to use electronic referrals to speed up the whole process of getting people treated. The medical staff would also like to see a strategic plan specifically for the elimination of hepatitis C, with all the elements fully funded, including the cost of extra lab testing and community testing.I would like to end, really, by praising the health professionals, public health officials and the third sector organisations who are so committed to tackling this blood-borne disease. There has been a tremendous positive movement in Wales to get to the stage where we can eradicate it. It’s been the wonders of modern science, along with the commitment from the Welsh Government, to ensure that this will happen. But we do need more people to come forward for testing and I think we’d all welcome some high-profile celebrities to come out and say they have hepatitis C to help de-stigmatise the disease. So, I’m very pleased that we have begun this process of eliminating hepatitis C and I hope that the journey will end with a hepatitis C-free Wales.

Mark Isherwood AC: An estimated—we heard—12,000 to 14,000 people are currently living with hepatitis C in Wales, around half undiagnosed. It’s one of three main causes of liver disease and the only one of the five big killers in Wales and England where deaths are rising. It therefore represents a significant public health challenge. As I said in January’s debate on the contamination of blood, in the 1970s and 1980s, a large proportion of blood products supplied to patients by the NHS was contaminated with HIV or hepatitis C. Around 4,670 patients with haemophilia were infected and over 2,000 have since died in the UK, including 70 in Wales, from the effects of these viruses. However, evidentially, hepatitis C primarily affects people from particular groups, such as injecting drug users, homeless people, gay and bisexual men, and migrant populations from high-prevalence regions.

The Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Mark Isherwood AC: The recent Hepatitis C Trust report, ‘Hepatitis C in Wales: Perspectives, challenges & solutions’, concludes with a number of key recommendations for action as follows: the inclusion of a commitment to eliminate hepatitis C ‘as a serious public health concern…within the Welsh Government’s forthcoming Public Health Bill.‘The implementation of a public awareness campaign aimed at tackling stigma around hepatitis C and at encouraging individuals to access testing.‘A continuation of, and long-term commitment to, the successful all-Wales hepatitis C treatment protocol, which ensures equal access to new, highly effective treatments for increased numbers of people.‘An increase in the number of community-based treatment services…to ensure access to treatment for groups who traditionally find services difficult to access.‘Full implementation of an opt-out approach to BBV testing in substance misuse services, as set out in the Welsh Government’s Working Together to Reduce Harm: Substance Misuse Delivery Plan 2016–2018.’And, ‘The utilisation of opportunities, such as mandatory GP education days, to deliver BBV training to key primary care professionals.’The approval of new drug treatments by NICE and the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group means that the elimination of hepatitis C as a serious public health concern in Wales is now a wholly achievable goal. To seize this new opportunity, we must find the 50 per cent of people currently undiagnosed by widening access to testing and further investigating which groups can be cost-effectively screened. By increasing diagnoses we will be able to treat and cure more people. With effective and accessible new treatments now available to all who need to them, it’s easier than ever to treat and cure patients, presenting a great opportunity to achieve the elimination of hepatitis C in Wales. The key steps that the Hepatitis C Trust believes will help to drive progress in this, and reflecting what I said earlier, are increasing testing in primary care, antenatal care and pharmacies in order to find the undiagnosed; implementing a strategy to re-engage patients who have tested positive for hepatitis C but disengaged from the care pathway; launching a public awareness campaign to find undiagnosed patients, particularly those who may have contracted the virus a long time ago and are unaware that they were ever at risk; making treatment available to hepatitis C patients in community settings, such as drug services and GP surgeries, to widen access to patients traditionally considered hard to reach; providing training and information about hepatitis C to healthcare professionals, particularly GPs; and, making the use of buddy schemes more widespread and ensuring the provision of peer education in substance misuse services in order to tackle barriers to patients engaging in treatment and to spread key messages to at risk groups. Backing calls for a hepatitis C elimination strategy, a global research-based biopharmaceutical company, AbbVie, has contacted Members calling for this to set out the steps to elimination, including annual testing, screening, diagnosis and treatment numbers. The strategy should have ministerial oversight and be driven by the hepatitis C sub-group of the Welsh liver plan implementation board, with a mandate to ensure that ambitious targets are met across all local health boards. And the Welsh Government and NHS, they say, should continue its open approach to engagement with all partners involved in delivering care and treatment to people living with hepatitis C, so that flexible and innovative care models can be established, including peer-to-peer support in community settings. As they say, changing models of care will require a renewed approach to education, training and workforce development. And as today’s motion therefore states, we call on the Welsh Government to confirm their commitment to the World Health Organization eradication date of 2030, and to consider new operational guidelines to support NHS Wales to work towards this. Thank you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I’ll keep my contribution today short. I just want to state my support, very simply, for this important motion. The aim is very simple too, and it’s also extremely exciting, I think. The aim is to eradicate hepatitis C in Wales in its entirety. Yes, there is a commitment from the World Health Organization to eradicate by 2030, but we, here in Wales, could move according to a tighter timescale than that. The first part of the motion before us shows that a great deal of the infrastructure, in terms of health, is available to us already, specifically the people within our health service, and I’m very pleased to be able to thank them for the major steps that have already been taken in that regard.I’d also like to thank Julie Morgan for the work that she does in this particular field. It’s been a pleasure to collaborate not just on hepatitis C and the eradication that we hope to see in the years to come, but also on the subject of contaminated blood. It’s struck me, as it has the Member for Cardiff North, that the problem is a lack of patients, almost, at present. That’s a tribute to the staff that we have within the health service. It sounds very strange, but we have more capacity than we have patients to go through the system. It’s fair to say that we don’t talk about that very often when we talk about the NHS, but it is true in this particular instance. The truth is it’s about finding those people who haven’t yet received a diagnosis, who don’t know that they’re in an at-risk group, who don’t show symptoms. That’s the challenge in front of us, to be able to move forward towards eradication.I won’t repeat some for the comments that have already been made with regard to how to do that, by tightening up primary care, by searching for groups that might be at a higher risk—more testing in prisons and for drug users, and in the antenatal system, and so on. The good work and the foundations have already been laid, and I’m very grateful to the Government for the strides taken in this regard already. But I’m pleased that the motion is before us today, and I’m pleased to be able to support this motion to give that extra push towards reaching that aim that is genuinely achievable in Wales. It’s something that I know that we, as a nation, will be very proud of when we do achieve it.

Hefin David AC: I’d like to start my comments by saying how glad I am to see Julie Morgan back in the Chamber, and it’s a real privilege to work with her on these issues, particularly the contaminated blood, and to support her lead here on this issue with regard to hepatitis C—a real privilege. I support the motion because of the work that has been done by the Welsh Government and health boards in Wales, and agree with what Rhun has said and Mark Isherwood has said that we have more work to do. I’d like to give some examples from the Aneurin Bevan health board, which serves my constituency and the area of Gwent, particularly the recognition that they’ve made that it can take decades to identify those people who are suffering from this disease and to treat them. The Aneurin Bevan health board’s hepatology service works with partners in a variety of settings to increase the diagnosis of hepatitis infection and on the phased introduction of new hepatitis C drugs. The Aneurin Bevan health board prison healthcare team have implemented an opt-out blood-borne virus testing policy at reception appointments at HMP Prescoed in Usk. In 2016, they reported to me—I’ve investigated this in preparation for this debate—a significant increase in the number of prisoners tested and the percentage of admissions tested, and there’s been a steady increase in Prescoed. There’s also been, within the Aneurin Bevan area, targeted action to increase access to needle exchange services and blood-borne virus testing in people who inject drugs—those people at risk who’ve already been mentioned by other Members. Public Health Wales are working with area planning boards on a proposal to develop a five-year costed action plan to increase the investment in needle exchange to ensure 100 per cent coverage, which means that clean needles are used for every injecting occasion. A key policy development in Gwent has been the pharmacy pick and mix pilot, which provides drug-using paraphernalia and harm reduction literature, together with increased interaction with clients to allow for harm reduction messages and signposting for blood-borne virus testing. The Gwent area planning board commissioned an integrated Gwent drug and alcohol service for adults, which went live in May 2015. This includes the delivery of specialist needle exchange, with a small dedicated budget for the provision of needle exchange paraphernalia. And Aneurin Bevan health board have also reported to me the Gwent specialist substance misuse service for people with more complex needs, and this service also offers needle exchange and BBV testing. But, also recognised by other Members, one of the major at-risk groups for hepatitis C infection are people of South Asian origin. Aneurin Bevan’s public health team has had discussions with religious leaders about promoting blood-borne virus testing in mosques in Newport. In addition, the ‘Living Well Living Longer’ programme will also be raising awareness of hepatitis C through its programme of health checks in Newport.These are all examples of what the Aneurin Bevan health board is doing to help with harder-to-reach individuals who are at risk of hepatitis C, and I’d like the Cabinet Secretary to be aware of these practices. The Welsh Government can build on this good practice, and, when it comes to the final point of the motion, consider new operational guidelines to support the NHS in Wales in eradicating hepatitis C. This is something that can be done, and, again, I say it is a privilege to champion the cause that has been pioneered by Julie Morgan in this Chamber. We’ve come a long way, and eradicating hepatitis C is within our reach.

Caroline Jones AC: UKIP fully support this motion and efforts to eradicate hepatitis C by 2030. As others have highlighted, hepatitis C is a disease that affects about 2 per cent of the world’s population and is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths each year. It is therefore unsurprising that the World Health Organization wants to eliminate the disease.The UK Government has pledged its support for the World Health Organization’s eradication goals last year and I would urge the Welsh Government to follow this example. The Welsh NHS has made significant strides in treating people with hepatitis C in recent years. Nearly 900 patients were treated last year in an attempt to clear the backlog of patients awaiting treatment. However, with up to 7,000 people in Wales unknowingly infected with the hepatitis C virus, much, much more must be done to identify and treat people living with the disease.Wales urgently needs a hepatitis C reduction strategic action plan to ensure that local health boards prioritise elimination of the disease within the Welsh liver disease delivery plan. The strategic action plan should, as an absolute minimum, implement and build upon the recommendations contained within the Hepatitis C Trust’s 2016 report on hepatitis C in Wales. In preparing that report, the Hepatitis C Trust found that hepatitis C sufferers in Wales are disproportionately drawn from some of the most disadvantaged and marginalised groups in society, and three quarters of people with the virus come from the lowest two socioeconomic quintiles. They also found that their disadvantage was compounded by the stigma of hepatitis C. The Hepatitis C Trust found that those who were diagnosed in the 1980s were told by health professionals not to tell anyone else of their diagnosis, and many commented on the years of internalised guilt and shame that resulted. Thankfully, our NHS has moved on from that shameful period. However, the stigma perpetuates. We still have far too many people with hepatitis C who report the sense of guilt and shame they feel or how, in some way, they feel dirty. Unfortunately, this often results in those individuals disengaging with care entirely, despite being aware of their diagnosis—a decision that greatly increases the risk of liver cirrhosis or cancer.In order to tackle this pervading stigma and the incredible harm it does, the Hepatitis C Trust report recommends action be taken to normalise the disease by undertaking positive media campaigns to highlight the cross-section of people living with the virus. I hope that the Cabinet Secretary will work with his counterparts in the rest of the UK and the Hepatitis C Trust to deliver such a campaign. However, if we are to fully eradicate the stigma, we have to ensure that those living with the virus have positive experiences when dealing with all health professionals. People with hepatitis C have reported always being booked in for the last dental appointment of the day, apparently to allow time for dental practices to undertake additional infection control practices. Such practices left people feeling as though they posed a danger to others and were in some way distinct from the rest of the population. This has to stop. Additional infection control measures should be unnecessary—dental practices should have sufficient infection control measures in place with every patient to prevent transmission of every blood-borne virus.We have to educate not just the public, but also our health professionals, about hepatitis C. I urge the Welsh Government to adopt the Hepatitis C Trust’s recommendations and I urge Members to support the motion. Together, we can eradicate this terrible disease. Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd.

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I also thank Julie Morgan, in particular, for bringing forward this debate, as I know how much work, Julie, you’ve done on this issue and I fully endorse the sentiments and proposals set out in the motion? I think we can all be proud of the record here in Wales of the diagnosis and treatment of hepatitis C, and, of course, welcome a continued commitment to achieve the eradication of the disease by 2030.But it’s on the third point of the motion that I would like to focus my comments, and, in particular, to look at the issues of screening healthcare workers, particularly surgeons. To support this, I would like to refer to the case of a constituent of mine who was diagnosed with a rare form of hepatitis C in 2012. She’d been suffering symptoms for a number of years, but was only ever tested for hepatitis A and B. When she was eventually tested for, and diagnosed with, hepatitis C she was on the verge of liver cirrhosis. But her treatment—despite the debilitating side effects, and the stigma that she suffered and the precautions that she had to take within the family in terms of use of toothbrushes and other equipment in the house—was very quickly effective. She responded to the treatment within a matter of weeks, having been told to expect that it would take many months, and has had nothing but praise for the treatment that she received at that point. But what had remained a mystery was how she contracted the illness in the first place. It was only towards the end of her treatment that the specialist nurse who was treating her identified that she was also treating a surgeon who’d operated on my constituent in 1997. So, once the source of her infection had been identified, NHS Wales wrote to some 5,000 patients treated by this surgeon, offering to test them for hepatitis C. Around 3,000 of those patients responded, and, from that subsequent testing, a further four patients were identified as having contracted the virus, almost certainly from the same surgeon.Llywydd, since 2007, all NHS staff involved in exposure-prone procedures are required to be screened, but there is no screening requirement for current staff who have been practicing since before 2007. Now, obviously, where any practicing surgeon is found to have hep C, he or she is taken off current duties. But there is no automatic process of looking back at the practice of the affected surgeon to identify and contact patients who might have been at risk. Such a look-back only happens when it’s approved by the UK advisory panel, as happened in the case of my constituent. As I understand it, the UK advisory panel guidance for pre-2007 healthcare workers places a clear expectation on surgeons to put themselves forward for testing if they believe that they may have been exposed to a communicable disease. Now, hepatitis C has been referred to by some as the hidden killer. Now, whether that’s an appropriate description is debatable, but it has gained that tag because those who have it often don’t know, as we’ve already heard, and, as we’ve also already heard, we have an estimated 12,000 to 14,000 people in Wales who carry the virus, the majority of whom remain undiagnosed. Often causing no symptoms and no sickness, hepatitis C can lie dormant in a person’s body for decades. In this context, it’s quite likely that many health professionals will not actually be able to identify themselves as a carrier of the hepatitis C virus. Now, I recently wrote to the Minister for Social Services and Public Health regarding the particular circumstances pertaining to my constituent, including issues around the limitation of compensation arrangements for hep C sufferers, whereby patients infected by their surgeons have no access to compensation, unlike those infected by contaminated blood. Now, I’ll come back to that at another time, because today I want to concentrate on the eradication aspect. So, given the widespread recognition that one of the biggest challenges to achieving eradication by 2030 is the extent to which the disease goes undiagnosed, I’d like to think that, building on Mark Isherwood’s theme of expanding screening, if a regime of screening healthcare workers on a more comprehensive basis, including those practicing before 2007, could assist in identifying latent cases amongst practitioners, and therefore potentially their former patients, I’d suggest this is something that the Welsh Government should give serious consideration to when developing its strategy for reaching the ambitious but very achievable target of eradicating the virus by 2030.So, once again, can I thank Julie for bringing forward this motion and for the debate today, and ask Welsh Government to consider all measures available that might help to attain the eradication of hepatitis C in Wales?

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Welfare and Sport, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. I really am pleased to respond to today’s debate across Members, and I thank people for the thoughtful way in which they’ve approached the issue. We, of course, recognise the importance of this issue for people right across Wales, and I’m happy to say that, together with the NHS, the Welsh Government has made major advancements in the treatment and management of viral hepatitis, a number of which have been recognised by a variety of Members across the Chamber, and I’m pleased to have the opportunity to talk about that some more today. The Welsh Government, of course, has been committed to tackling the burden of blood-borne viruses for more than a decade. We funded the blood-borne virus action plan for Wales up to 2014, and laid the foundations for the even more successful hepatology services that we now have. When that funding was made available, it was on the understanding that health boards would invest in these services and develop the resource to prevent and treat viral hepatitis, and I really am proud that Wales has a strong and effective clinical hepatology network led, as Julie Morgan said in her introduction, by Dr Brendan Healy. That network co-ordinates the treatment of those identified with both hepatitis B and C. I want to pause there for a moment to recognise not just the work of Dr Healy but, actually, the whole network, because this is something that colleagues in England don’t have—they don’t have the same unified approach to treatment, the way in which we’re using best value treatments, both in terms of finance and outcome for the citizen, and some of the colleagues in England look on with a degree of, I wouldn’t say just envy, but they think it’s a standard and an approach to aspire to that is being pioneered and led successfully by our clinicians in Wales, and absolutely benefits the patients in so doing. It’s a model, in many ways, for services across the country—they need to collaborate and co-operate across the whole country to have a unified approach that is actually focused on improvement.The all-Wales hepatitis C roll-out programme was initiated in 2014, and part of this is to make the best use of the new wave of more effective antiviral medication, in particular, as Julie Morgan said, interferon-free medication. That started by being initially very expensive to treat, but, actually, there’s a much longer term saving, both in financial terms, but also—mentioning my constituent Mr Thomas, who has a young family—a significant improvement in the overall well-being, not just in the medical sense, of people who receive the treatment, with quite startling cure rates for people as a result of that successful introduction. That has received both national and international recognition.We’ve treated more than 1,000 patients in the last 18 months, and I’m proud to say we’ve now treated all of the patients who are known to services in Wales and who are still accessing care. That is a remarkable step forward made by our service. We recognise, though, that there are individuals at risk of both hepatitis B and C who do not access traditional healthcare settings, and there are numerous projects already under way in development across Wales to address this—again, recognised in the comments of people earlier in the debate on how do we get to those people who are harder to reach and don’t always access care services, either individually or even consistently. Those projects will look at ways to increase awareness of hepatitis C infection, to provide access to simpler diagnostic tests in community settings for those at risk—and, again, there’s a point here about developing and not just standing still in our service—and also to ensure that individuals who are infected are able to access treatment. These projects, along with the all-Wales hepatitis C roll-out programme are led and guided by the Welsh viral hepatitis sub-group that Julie Morgan, again, referred to. They’re a sub-group of the liver disease implementation group—one of our, again, short, snappy titles in the world of health. But the importance of this group—and it is really important—is that it’s comprised of clinicians, nurse specialists, patient representatives, the third sector, pharmacy, laboratory staff, substance misuse services, health protection staff and Welsh Government officials. Again, that’s a feature of our approach here in Wales—genuinely taking advantage of the fact that, as a small country, we should be able to bring together the right group of people within the same room to make genuinely national choices and then expect that to be got on and delivered on a national basis. I want to thank all of those who have led on this work across all sectors and who have contributed to the very real success of the programme so far.On 28 May last year, the World Health Assembly, the decision-making body of the World Health Organization, adopted a global health sector strategy on viral hepatitis. That strategy introduced the first ever global targets for viral hepatitis B and C control, including the goal of elimination of viral hepatitis by 2030. Achieving these targets will mean that the diagnosis and treatment of viral hepatitis is prioritised in public health services. I am pleased to confirm again today to Members that Wales has signed up to and is committed to the World Health Organization target to eliminate hepatitis B and C. To reflect this, the Welsh viral hepatitis sub-group has amended its own term of reference to reflect the leadership and guidance that will be required from it to ensure that the elimination targets are achieved. We’ve already made huge progress against these targets, and the sub-group is developing a draft framework of actions that will be required over the coming years to achieve our goal. Officials in the Government will receive the draft framework this month. I expect them to include consideration of how to identify and test hard-to-reach groups; testing and treating in community settings; and an assurance that all those with the infection will have the opportunity to be tested and treated. The framework will provide the basis for guidance on the next steps, which will be issued to the NHS this summer.We have what it takes here in Wales to prevent hepatitis B and C, and Wales, amongst other UK countries, has a strong preventative agenda. We have effective and targeted hepatitis A and B vaccination programmes, and the current uptake for those vaccinations is 95 per cent. From September this year, the hepatitis B vaccine will be incorporated into the routine infant programme, and all babies will be offered it at two, three and four months of age. All pregnant women are offered hepatitis B testing as part of antenatal screening, and all babies born to mothers who test positive for hepatitis B are managed according to clinical guidelines. We’re able to effectively prevent mother-to-child transmission of the hepatitis B virus through timely hep B virus birth-dose vaccination.As Hefin David mentioned, we already have a well-established needle exchange programme in community pharmacies, ensuring access to sterile injecting equipment and effective drug dependence treatment, in order to prevent and control epidemics of viral hepatitis B and C. The majority of the current ongoing transmission of hepatitis C occurs within people who inject drugs, and we therefore prioritise the identification of individuals with hepatitis C within these communities and in providing treatment.For those already infected, new oral, well-tolerated medicines and treatment regimens for people with chronic hepatitis C virus infection are achieving cure rates of over 90 per cent, as Julie Morgan mentioned in her remarks. And that effective treatment is also available for people with chronic hepatitis B virus infection, although for most people, such treatment needs to be lifelong. Suppressing the virus limits damage to the liver, and often it is liver damage that causes people to lose their lives. These treatments reduce the risk of long-term complications of hepatitis B and C, including cirrhosis and liver cancer. As a consequence, cost to the NHS is reduced, as these conditions are very expensive to manage. It also reduces the requirement for liver transplantation—again, a costly and complicated procedure and a resource that is in great demand. The most recent data suggest that we’re at least seeing a downward trend in liver transplants and deaths. We’re fortunate in Wales that we do have generally excellent services, with a proven expertise to lead and support these, and that those at risk can be confident that every opportunity will be taken to provide for their care. I will receive updates on progress through the viral hepatitis sub-group, and I will of course keep Members informed of this work.

I call on Dai Lloyd to reply to the debate.

Dai Lloyd AC: It’s a pleasure to reply to this debate, which has been an excellent debate. May I congratulate everyone who’s participated in it? What we have before us is the story of great success in the health service in Wales. Back in the day, when I was a young medical student with a bright future—just a few years ago—we were talking about hepatitis A and hepatitis B and then hepatitis non-A and non-B. We have since then found a number of other viruses: hepatitis A, B, C, D, E—all different sub-strains of that virus. Not only have we discovered these, but we’ve also been able to treat them. Many years ago, we would find hepatitis but we couldn’t do anything to treat it. The landscape has been transformed. Amid all of these complaints about our health service, we forget about the bigger picture: that there is wonderful work happening in the background. We have the ability now to eradicate hepatitis C and hepatitis B. We have the technology and we have the drugs available to us. I’m particularly grateful to my fellow Members for supporting this motion, which naturally congratulates the staff of the NHS, calls on the Welsh Government to confirm their commitment—and I’ve heard the words of the Cabinet Secretary and I thank him from the bottom of my heart for those words—and also the other considerations before us in this debate this afternoon. First of all, I’d like to thank Julie Morgan for her expert opening of this debate and congratulate her on her work as the chair of the haemophilia group. Many of the aspects here are crosscutting in terms of these issues. I also congratulate Mark Isherwood on his contribution, as well as Rhun, of course.In recalling Hefin David’s contribution, well, yes, it can take many years for this disease to emerge, because it is very difficult to identify. You can question people and they simply don’t remember if, at some point in the past, they suffered extreme tiredness. People simply don’t remember; they forget. Therefore, it is difficult to carry out that diagnosis, unless you focus on those people, as many people have already mentioned, in prisons and those injecting drugs, of course. That is why those needle exchange programmes are so crucially important in eradicating this disease. That was also mentioned by Hefin David.May I also thank Caroline Jones and Dawn Bowden for their contributions and, as I’ve already mentioned, the Cabinet Secretary, who told us about the excellent system that we have here in Wales? We’re in the vanguard. We often compare ourselves unfavourably in this country with other countries, but Wales is in the vanguard when it comes to issues such as hepatitis C. Because the challenge remains, despite our ability to eradicate it. Because, as we’ve already heard, we are treating those people who are already identified. The point is we’re not identifying 50 per cent of the people. So, there is some work to be done in identifying those people who carry this virus.We have to deal with stigma, of course. People often fear going to their GP because they have lives that are often difficult and chaotic, and they feel that people will criticise them for what they’ve done in the past. Therefore, there is a challenge there for us to deal with all those systems. But ultimately, when one can identify exhaustion with the possibility that they have been infected by contaminated blood, we have to then start to think about the possibility that hepatitis C is the cause, and that’s the challenge for us, as doctors and nurses: to be aware of that. But also, there is a challenge, once we’ve identified those people, to ensure that they continue with the treatment. When you do have difficult, challenging lifestyles, which are often chaotic, then it’s difficult to maintain that treatment too.There are a number of challenges, but, whilst I welcome all of the contributions that we’ve heard this afternoon—and I also welcome the Government’s response—this country is in the vanguard when it comes to issues related to hepatitis C. We have the technology, we have the treatments available, and we should go for it. Please support the motion. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. 7. Debate on the Report by the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee: 'The Big Picture: The Committee's Initial Views on Broadcasting in Wales'

The next item on our agenda is the debate on the report by the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee, ‘The Big Picture: The Committee’s Initial Views on Broadcasting in Wales’, and I call on Bethan Jenkins, the Chair, to move the motion.

Motion NDM6329 Bethan JenkinsTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes the report of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee, ‘The Big Picture—The Committee’s Initial views on Broadcasting in Wales’, which was laid in the Table Office on 1 February 2017.2. Agrees that S4C, having accepted the committee’s recommendation to this effect, should lay before the Assembly annual reports and audited statements of accounts.

Motion moved.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I am very pleased to open this debate on the initial report of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee on broadcasting in Wales, ‘The Big Picture’. Thank you to the clerks and the Assembly Members of all parties for their hard work on the committee.Despite the Assembly’s current lack of formal powers in this area, I believe there is now a consensus that the BBC and other media organisations operating in Wales need to be publicly accountable to the National Assembly for their responsibilities and commitments to Wales. Broadcasters wield enormous cultural and political influence in Wales, and the widely acknowledged absence of a strong, home-grown commercial and print media makes public scrutiny of their role even more important. While we expect and welcome broadcasters and the media to hold us to account as politicians, the Assembly also has a clear and legitimate interest in holding public service broadcasters themselves to account. Public service broadcasters have a clear cultural obligation to portray Wales and Welsh society in a way that holds up a mirror to this country and shows citizens here, in the rest of the UK, and across the world, who we are as a nation. I hope that the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee will provide the necessary focus for holding our public service broadcasters to account.Nid yw’r adroddiad sydd ger ein bron heddiw yn ganlyniad ymchwiliad gan bwyllgor penodol. Yn lle hynny, ar ôl cymryd tystiolaeth gan nifer o ffigyrau a sefydliadau allweddol ym maes darlledu, yng Nghymru a thu hwnt, mae’n crynhoi ein safbwyntiau cychwynnol ar rai o’r materion allweddol. Dyma yw ein cyfraniad cyntaf i’r hyn y gobeithiaf y bydd yn ddadl barhaus ynglŷn ag a yw Cymru’n cael y cyfryngau y mae’n eu haeddu. Mae’n darparu sylfaen ar gyfer gwaith â mwy o ffocws rydym eisoes wedi’i ddechrau ac y bwriadwn ei wneud drwy gydol y Cynulliad hwn. Er enghraifft, rydym wedi cynnal ymchwiliad ar ddyfodol S4C—rydym yn cynnal ymchwiliad, dylwn ddweud—ac rydym yn gobeithio cyhoeddi ein casgliadau cyn toriad yr haf er mwyn dylanwadu ar ganlyniad adolygiad yr adran dros ddiwylliant, y cyfryngau a chwaraeon y gobeithiwn ei fod ar fin digwydd o gyllid a chylch gwaith S4C yn y dyfodol.Rydym yn pryderu ynglŷn â dirywiad parhaus cyfryngau lleol a newyddiaduraeth leol yng Nghymru, ac rydym hefyd wedi dechrau ymchwiliad yn y maes hwn, ac rwy’n gobeithio y bydd yn argymell atebion go iawn a pharhaol.Mae angen mwy o ystyriaeth i rôl radio yng Nghymru. Ychydig iawn o gynnwys Cymreig penodol neu newyddion Cymreig y mae rhai o’r gorsafoedd radio cyhoeddus a masnachol mwyaf poblogaidd sy’n gweithredu yng Nghymru yn eu darparu. Mae hwn yn faes arall lle rydym yn bwriadu gwneud gwaith mwy manwl.Lord Tony Hall, the director general of the BBC, will be giving evidence to the committee once again on 28 June. In evidence to the committee in March this year, Lord Hall reiterated a commitment to additional funding for English-language broadcasting in Wales. As to how much that extra funding should be, we recommended, like a previous Assembly committee, the Institute of Welsh Affairs and the Welsh Government itself, that an additional £30 million should be provided annually. Extra funding at this level would have potentially allowed for a doubling of output and for BBC Wales to produce quality programmes that have a better chance of earning a place on the BBC’s network.Ers i ni gyflwyno adroddiad, mae’r Arglwydd Hall wedi ymateb gydag £8.5 miliwn ychwanegol ar gyfer darlledu Saesneg yng Nghymru. Er bod unrhyw gynnydd i’w groesawu wrth gwrs, yn bersonol rwy’n siomedig ei fod gryn dipyn yn llai na’r £30 miliwn y mae’r pwyllgor wedi galw amdano. Rwyf hefyd yn siomedig fod y cyllid ychwanegol ar gyfer Cymru gryn dipyn yn llai na’r £40 miliwn ychwanegol y mae BBC Scotland yn mynd i’w gael, gan gynnwys cyllid ar gyfer sianel deledu ychwanegol wedi’i neilltuo ar gyfer yr Alban, yn enwedig gan fod Ofcom wedi dweud wrthym—wrth ein pwyllgor—fod yr Alban wedi’i gormynegeio mewn perthynas ag ariannu ar gyfer y rhwydwaith. Mae’r angen am sianel bwrpasol ar gyfer Cymru yn fater ar gyfer trafodaeth, ac nid ydym wedi ei chael eto, ond mae’r gwahaniaeth yn y swm o gyllid ychwanegol yn arwyddocaol ac yn galw am eglurhad pellach. Rwy’n sicr y bydd y pwyllgor yn sicrhau bod yr Arglwydd Hall yn rhoi’r esboniadau hynny ymhen pythefnos.It is fair to note that Wales has secured more than its population share of spending by the BBC. In large part, this reflects the considerable success of the Roath Lock complex and the programmes made there. However, much of this spending does little to reflect a distinctly Welsh identity and viewpoint. We also have concerns about the future of Roath Lock once guaranteed commissions from the BBC come to an end. There are also concerns that have just been raised with regard to the fact that ‘The Wales Report’ is coming to an end, and that we need to recommission that political programme. We need more political programmes, not just a dilution of the ones that we already have.On radio, the news output of popular BBC radio stations like Radio 2 and Radio 1 does little to promote the very distinctive news agenda in Wales—and we saw that during the general election, too—and can often reinforce or create more confusion about the responsibility for political decisions across the nations of the UK. So, we have recommended a Wales news opt-out for Radio 2 and Radio 1. And this, we understand, will be considered as part of the BBC’s news review and I look forward to the outcome of that.O ran cefnogaeth y BBC i newyddiaduraeth leol, rydym yn falch fod y BBC yn edrych o ddifrif ar ffyrdd o helpu i wella craffu ar ddemocratiaeth leol yn y DU. Fodd bynnag, mae gennym amheuon ynglŷn â sut y maent yn ymdrin â hyn. Mae hwn yn faes y bwriadwn graffu ymhellach arno fel rhan o’n hymchwiliad i newyddiaduraeth leol yng Nghymru. Rwy’n meddwl—o’m rhan i beth bynnag—fod gennyf amheuon yma ynglŷn ag os yw newyddiadurwyr yn cael eu lleoli mewn llefydd fel Media Wales, a fyddent yn gweld y byddai arian y BBC yn darparu ar eu cyfer o bosibl, drwy allu cymryd rhai o’r swyddi sydd ganddynt ar hyn o bryd yn y sefydliadau hynny yn ôl. Ni fyddem am weld hynny’n digwydd ar unrhyw lefel, a byddwn yn gobeithio y byddai’r Gweinidog yn cytuno ynglŷn â hynny.In terms of the governance of the BBC, the committee had a number of concerns about the new governance arrangements for the BBC. For instance, that the director of BBC Cymru Wales will no longer be a member of the BBC’s main board; that insufficient weight has been given to the audience’s view in the new BBC governance structures; and whether the resurrected post of BBC director of the nations and regions is the best way forward, as we are not convinced that one individual can carry out this role effectively. Perhaps Lord Hall will have some information that can ease our minds in that regard, but at present, we don’t think that that’s been strongly said.Gwrandawiadau cyn penodi: gwn fod Lee Waters wedi bod ar flaen y gad ar hyn. Fodd bynnag, rydym yn falch o nodi bod angen caniatâd Llywodraeth Cymru yn awr cyn y gellir penodi aelod bwrdd newydd y BBC ar gyfer Cymru. Ond argymhellodd ein hadroddiad y dylid cael gwrandawiad cyn penodi ar gyfer y swydd hon, ac y dylai’r enwebai ateb cwestiynau gan y pwyllgor cyn i Weinidogion Cymru benderfynu a ydynt am roi eu cydsyniad i benodi’r sawl a enwebwyd ai peidio. Ers cyhoeddi ein hadroddiad, mae Llywodraeth Cymru, wrth gwrs, wedi ymatal rhag rhoi ei chydsyniad i benodi’r ymgeisydd a enwebwyd ar gyfer y rôl hon. Deallaf fod y broses benodi yn cael ei hailgynnal felly. Mae ymateb Llywodraeth Cymru i’n hadroddiad wedi derbyn yr egwyddor o wrandawiad cyn penodi. Felly, nid yw’n ymddangos i mi fod unrhyw reswm ymarferol pam na all y Gweinidog roi ymrwymiad syml yma heddiw na fydd yn rhoi ei gydsyniad i benodiad hyd nes y ceir cyfle i gynnal gwrandawiad pwyllgor gyda’r ymgeisydd a enwebwyd. Ni fyddai hyn yn cael gwared ar hawl Gweinidogion i gadarnhau’r penodiad, ond byddai’n caniatáu iddynt ystyried barn y pwyllgor cyn gwneud y penderfyniad hwnnw.As I mentioned earlier, the committee is currently undertaking an inquiry into the DCMS review of the remit, funding and accountability of S4C, so I don’t intend to cover this aspect of our report in detail today. But we have said that the real-terms cuts to S4C’s budgets since 2010 are severe and disproportionate. These cuts have led to a situation where 57 per cent of S4C’s programmes are now repeats. This is far too high and is a matter of considerable concern to the committee.S4C has willingly appeared before Assembly committees. While this is welcome, it is no less than we would expect. However, we are pleased that S4C has recognised its accountability to the National Assembly and has agreed to formalise the relationship by laying its annual reports and audited accounts before the Assembly. The motion that we are debating today will enable those documents to be laid before the Assembly in future, and will provide a regular focus for scrutiny of S4C by the committee and the Assembly.Yn yr amser sydd gennyf yn weddill, fe soniaf yn fyr am ITV Cymru. Mae’n bosibl eu bod yn rhan o gwmni preifat, ond mae’n dal i fod i raddau helaeth yn ddarlledwr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus gyda rhwymedigaethau i’r cyhoedd y mae’n eu gwasanaethu. Mae ITV wedi nodi ei fod yn rhagori ar ofynion ei drwydded ar gyfer cynulleidfaoedd yng Nghymru. Er y gallai hynny fod yn wir, mae’r gwasanaeth trydedd sianel yn yr Alban sydd mewn dwylo annibynnol unwaith eto wedi cynyddu ei ddarpariaeth nad yw’n newyddion yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf, ond mae darpariaeth ITV Cymru wedi dirywio. Byddwn yn annog ITV i feddwl am arddel safbwynt mwy rhagweithiol o ran darparu cynnyrch sy’n fwy penodol Gymreig. Er y gallwn eu canmol am raglenni fel ‘Aberfan’ ar y rhwydwaith, rwy’n credu bod llawer mwy i’w wneud. Wel, roeddwn yn mynd i ddatgan buddiant gan fod fy mrawd yn newyddiadurwr ar ‘Channel 4 News’, ond efallai y bydd yn ddiolchgar i wybod nad wyf yn mynd i siarad rhagor, er mwyn gadael i’r Aelodau eraill gyfrannu. Rwy’n sicr y gall Aelodau eraill hefyd sôn am Ofcom a’u rolau newydd mewn perthynas â’r BBC a’u rôl yma yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol.Thank you very much to the Members who have been part of this debate. I hope that we can have more debate in future.

Suzy Davies AC: I’m going to disappoint you there, Bethan—I’m not going to start off talking about Ofcom. I won’t have time in my short submission, I’m afraid. I did want to stress, actually, to start with—while thanking the committee and the staff for their work on this—that it is a very innovative committee, the one that we are sitting on now. I just wanted to, as I said, talk about that for a moment. This report, as you heard, is a report of initial views. It’s the beginning of a series in which we’ll interrogate the story of broadcast media in a way that we can actually measure our influence on the progress of that story over the next—well, it will be four years now, but five in total. Because it is easy for us, as Members, to fall into a pattern of short-term scrutiny because we are so small in number. There will always be new and compelling work to be done, and assessing our legacy as a committee—any committee, really—as parliamentarians isn’t something to which we can devote as much time as we might need to. It limits our ability to prove to the people of Wales that we, the Assembly, have the ability to make representation an active tool. Representing constituents isn’t just about name checks here in the Chamber or using some particular issue as a political baseball. Yet, in the small media country it is difficult to try and build up any kind of momentum of understanding of what this Assembly can achieve on our constituents’ behalf—whether that is improving Government policy and legislation, yes, but by actually getting our public, private and third sectors, as well as everybody in Wales as individuals, to consider our behaviour, our rights, our responsibilities—indeed, their power, if you like. So, I genuinely commend this committee. I know I am a part of it, but I think that this is such a good lead for taking the long view and starting a much longer piece of work in this case on the—[Interruption.] Well, only the best are on this committee. Now, when this report—this initial report, remember—was published, it did ruffle a few feathers, and I think that's a good thing. None of us wishes to be adversarial in committee; we value the evidence that witnesses give us. But our public service media in Wales has so few players in it that the expectations of each of them will be that much higher. We acknowledge completely that the funding cuts have consequences, and this report doesn't just shy away from the role of a UK Government in that, but we also recognise that the BBC has direct responsibility for the decisions that affect both BBC Cymru Wales and S4C, and a number of our recommendations, as you will see, are directly for the BBC’s attention nationally. And I think it will be interesting to see how this Assembly can influence a body that is not actually accountable to us or Welsh Government.Now, this report gives early pointers towards certain expectations of the BBC in terms of Wales's portrayal and, more importantly, the reach of that portrayal into network. It also points to the BBC's spend in Wales, both on, primarily, but not exclusively, the likes of Roath Lock—you know, the national drama production base—and the news there, of course, is undeniably quite good. I mean, the money that’s spent there is higher than some notional Barnett formula equivalent, if you like. But the spend at the time on English language drama that was in some overt way about Wales was not so good. That was certainly a worry, and the charter review was of course imminent at that point, and good news was promised. Now, we know the outcome of the charter review, and Bethan has mentioned it. Our wider response to that will be one of the next chapters in this ongoing series, and, as we heard, we're taking evidence from Tony Hall in about a fortnight, I think.Now, Bethan, you've done the main spoilers, but I just wanted to mention that that extra £8.5 million for English language drama came with an aim that half of any new programmes grown from this would be broadcast across the UK, i.e. network, not just here in Wales. And when you bear in mind that the sum is the same as, or actually even slightly less than, BBC Cymru Wales is likely to be asked to save in view of the BBC's cash-flat settlement from the UK Government, it really doesn't look like extra money, does it? It looks like recycled money, but with some instructions on how to spend it attached. We've heard that the investment in Scotland is about four times higher, and I think it will be interesting to see how the BBC itself can be sure that its charter commitment to better balance representation, including portrayal of the nations and regions, and what that actually ends up looking like when some nations, shall I say, and regions do considerably better financially than others, notwithstanding a funding floor built into the charter.Just to finish, I think we ought to say as well that we did not shy away from trying to find out whether those broadcasters in Wales were basically just going to cry about dealing with the terrible lot that they had, or whether, indeed, despite the severe cuts, they were up for the challenge of meeting those cuts. And I think it was fair to say that, yes, they have. And I think it might also be fair to say that there are still some reassurances that we are looking for. As we sought better network coverage of BBC Wales productions on the BBC network, we also sought it of ITV Wales on the ITV network, and we know that, in both cases, the pitch and quality of programmes is critical. I think it's fair to say—sorry, I know I'm running out of time—ITV did step up to the plate; their ‘The Aberfan Young Wives’ Club’ won an award on national network TV, so I don't want to hear any backsliding from ITV Wales on this. And I think I will leave it there. I have got similar things to say, but I appreciate that I'm running a risk with you. [Laughter.]Thank you.

Wise indeed. Dai Lloyd.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and I’m pleased to contribute to this important debate on this wonderful document, ‘The Big Picture: the Committee’s Initial Views on Broadcasting in Wales’. As our wise, firm, and mature Chair, Bethan, has already mentioned, we are starting the journey here, because—. The background to this, naturally, is the portrayal of Wales on our networks, such as the BBC and ITV and so forth. And of course, the background is that we don’t believe that there is much portrayal of Wales at all—there is room for considerable improvement. People always tell you on the doorstep, given that we have been on a few doorsteps recently—they complain about the lack of coverage for Wales generally. Wales is always ignored. I heard that just last week. Of course, part of that is related to the lack of coverage specific to Wales on the BBC and so on, but also the fact that our print media and newspapers are so appallingly weak here in Wales, too. There’s virtually nobody left still reading the ‘Western Mail’ and so on.Now, in terms of—. As we are noting this report in the motion this afternoon, I will adhere to it and focus on recommendations 1, 2 and 3. Bethan has already referred to the need to spend more money here in terms of the BBC. We all visited the BBC studios just over the road here, and it was wonderful to see all the money spent on ‘Casualty’ and ‘Doctor Who’, but it’s not always clear from those programmes that they reflect Welsh life in any way whatsoever. I’ve made this point before: I’m not asking for bilingual daleks, but perhaps, from time to time, those programmes should actually reveal the fact that they’re made here in Wales. Every hospital in Wales has bilingual signs, for example; the hospital in ‘Casualty’ should perhaps reflect the nation where it’s produced. That’s an important point because we are losing money, as Suzy has just said, in terms of the portrayal of Wales through the medium of English, perhaps because it is spent here. We need more emphasis on portraying Wales in English-medium productions, and I will return to that point if time permits.Essentially, we need more emphasis on the portrayal of Wales or there will be outcomes to that. We have seen the result of that in the Brexit referendum last year, in that virtually none of our people realised that Wales benefited from its membership of the European Union. A smarter, truer portrayal of what happens here in Wales would have made it clear that the best idea would be to vote to remain in Europe. Most of our people were following the print media and mass media emerging from London. And of course, as the Chair’s already said, more people listen to Radio 1 and Radio 2 in Wales then unfortunately listen to Radio Cymru and Radio Wales. It would be an idea if Radio 1 and Radio 2, in their news slots, mentioned Wales from time to time. A slot would be nice, rather than ignoring us outright. That is a challenge for the BBC there. The last time the junior doctors were on strike—and they were on strike a few times last year—people who don’t habitually listen to our media here in Wales, such as some of our junior doctors in Morriston Hospital, thought that they were on strike too. But, of course, we are in a different country here, and our junior doctors weren’t on strike. That is why we need to provide accurate information or people will misunderstand the situation.We celebrate the existence of S4C, naturally. We support their intention to develop into a multiplatform broadcaster. It does reflect Wales through the medium of Welsh. That’s why it’s important that we have some sort of platform that reflects Wales through the medium of English too. That is still deficient. In terms of time, I will conclude with the intentions of the BBC in scrapping ‘The Wales Report’. How is that going to improve the portrayal of Wales, what happens in this place, our politics and the issues that we discuss, and when people say, ‘Well, we don’t know who’s in the Senedd. Are you a Member of the Assembly? We simply don’t know’? What’s the reaction? Scrapping ‘The Wales Report’. That is disgraceful. They need to revisit that decision. People out there are complaining that they don’t know what we do. And what happens? We’re scrapping the one programme that actually tells people what we do here. So, support the motion. Thank you.

Neil Hamilton AC: Well, Llywydd, I was intending to begin my remarks by saying that I agree with everything that’s been said hitherto, but I’m afraid that Dai Lloyd’s lapse into European controversy just a couple of minutes ago precludes me from doing that, sadly. It’s one of the very few disagreements that we have on the committee. Bethan Jenkins began her speech earlier on, on autism, by making an encomium to Mark Isherwood for his role in running the cross-party group, and I would like to begin my speech by issuing an encomium to her for the exemplary way in which she has chaired the committee. We are indeed, as Suzy said, a happy and naturally consensual band, at least in the narrow confines of the subjects that we have discussed. There is broad agreement in the committee on the approach that we take to the issues that we discussed. This report is very largely about public service broadcasting, and this is an important element in the debate about the educative role of both the broadcasting institutions and, indeed, the print media and their online versions. Dai referred a moment ago to the fact that very little of what we do in this place is reported, and there is very little real debate about serious issues. I don’t actually agree with what he said also about people following what’s said in the newspapers to make decisions on, for example, whether they’re pro or anti-Brexit. People generally tend to buy newspapers, I think, to reinforce their prejudices rather than to have them confronted. So, I don’t think there’s much scope for newspapers to change people’s opinions. But I do feel—and this is not a criticism that I level at Wales as opposed to any other part of the United Kingdom—that we’re really failed by our media institutions, which don’t actually have much serious political reporting at all. Unless I’m called to order by the Llywydd in this place, it’s very difficult to get reported at all, and certainly not for anything sensible that I might say. [Laughter.] Not that I’m inviting the Llywydd to do so yet again, but that seems to be the fact of the matter, that the media tend to concentrate on the trivialities rather than the important issues, so there’s no depth to reporting at all, which is a great shame.I think, for our public service broadcasters, there is a positive duty upon them to raise the level of debate and to perform that educative function. As regards the role of the BBC, I’d just like to make what I think is a simple point, that we’re classed as part of the nations and regions of the UK, but I do think that nations ought to be treated as more important than regions, and the cultural dimension of a nation is much more important. I know that Yorkshiremen would probably disagree with this and they regard themselves as God’s own country, but, nevertheless, we have the four nations and they ought, I think, to have a disproportionate share of the resources. It shouldn’t just be based on population or anything of that kind. Suzy referred in her speech, as indeed did Bethan, to the disparity of funding between Wales and Scotland. I don’t particularly want to deprive Scotland of anything that it has at the moment, but I do think that, as with the Barnett formula in general, Wales does have the thin end of the wedge and that does need to be addressed. I know this is happening to an extent with the latest funding decisions of the BBC, but there does still remain—and the figures have already been stated in this debate—a significant difference between what’s available to Wales and what’s available to Scotland. I also want to say, in the context of that remark, that S4C is a vital part of the strategy of increasing the number of Welsh speakers in Wales. It has an indispensable role to play and, therefore, should get the funding commensurate with the importance of that. It has suffered in recent years from staggering cuts, which amount to about 36 per cent in real terms, and I do believe that we ought to give greater priority to the needs of S4C. They’ve achieved, actually, a minor miracle on a much smaller budget in maintaining the standards of programmes and the breadth of them. There’s been a very substantial reduction in staff, from 220 to 130. Their overheads are a very lean 4 per cent of the total and I think, all told, it’s a very considerable success story and Huw and Ian Jones, in particular, have made an enormous contribution to the future of Welsh language broadcasting, not just in Wales, because they see their role as being broadcasters to Welsh speakers wherever they are in the world. And that’s a very important part of S4C, which I think ought to be underlined. I see that the red light has come on and I haven’t got time to say the many other things that I did intend to say, but I do believe that this is, for an initial report, a very good piece of work and it’s a good foundation upon which we can build a much bigger picture in due course.

Lee Waters AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and I shan’t follow the example of my colleagues in heaping praise upon the work of our own committee—that’s for others to form an opinion. It’s worth reminding ourselves why we set about this piece of work and the rather dismal backdrop when we began our work. There’s been, over the last 10 years, a 22 per cent cut in the number of hours of English language programming broadcast by BBC Wales, a 24 per cent cut in the funding of S4C and a 40 per cent cut in ITV Wales output in 2009. Throw in the turmoil and the changing landscape in the print and online media and, as many others have commented, Wales is not well served. Even though broadcasting is not a devolved subject, it profoundly impacts, not only in allowing people to make informed decisions about how our nation is run, but also telling stories to ourselves about our own communities and to the wider world, which is essential, I think, for any country’s cultural fabric. My colleagues have commented deftly on the main thrust of the report, so I shan’t dwell on that. I wanted to focus primarily on one area. We do rather well at kicking the BBC and holding them to account, which I think is entirely right, but one of the things that was important about this report was that it put the spotlight on the other public service broadcasters too, who I think for too long have gotten away with too little scrutiny of Welsh politics, and that needs to change. And this report, I hope, sends a signal that it will do. Channel 5, for example, a public service broadcaster that benefits from the airwaves granted by the people of this country: we could find no discernible content about Wales. Channel 4, just 2 per cent—2 per cent—of their first-run programming originated in Wales. And ITV. I should declare an interest as a former employee of ITV, and someone with a great fondness for the organisation and respect for the work they should do. This is not a criticism of ITV Wales, but it is a challenge to ITV plc, who cried wolf, I think, back in 2007 when advertising revenues did look perilous. It is fair to say that the impact that the Ofcom regulations had on them meant that were they not lessened, they would walk away from broadcasting public service programmes in Wales, but that call was listened to by politicians and regulators, and their requirements were dramatically reduced—as I mentioned earlier, a 40 per cent reduction. They’re now only required to broadcast four hours of news every week, and 90 minutes of non-news. The amount of money they spend is about £7 million a year—even though they don’t publish these figures, that’s what they confirmed to the committee was broadly right—a figure that has been, as they put it, broadly flat since 2008. So, since they’ve had their obligations cut by 40 per cent, they’ve spent no extra money on Wales, although they have been able to release some funding from technological advances. But I don’t think this is good enough.When you look at the profit of ITV plc, in 2007 it stood at £137 million, and last year it stood at £448 million. So, a staggering rise in profits by the parent company in exchange for a sharply reduced commitment to Wales. They told us that there’s no surplus value in the public service broadcasting licences, which again is the same tactic they tried in 2007—not a terribly subtle hint that if we asked them to do too much, they would simply walk away and we’d be left the poorer for it. And we would be the poorer without the presence of ITV Wales, because they do bring a plurality to the coverage in Wales. They bring a different tone and a different focus to BBC Wales, and we value that, but I think we are entitled to ask more of them in the way that they cover Wales. Now, they do point to their BAFTA success this year, and we congratulate them for their excellent programme on Aberfan. But beyond that, ITV as a network—and, again, I must make a distinction between ITV Wales and ITV as a network—pays very little attention to Wales. There is very little programming for the whole of the UK about Wales. The last example they would give us was in 2014 when the programme about Dylan Thomas was aired, and they’re going to struggle in the future because we don’t have many significant anniversaries coming up. They do really need to broaden their imagination. They’ve said that there are no barriers per se; it is a meritocracy, they suggested—there aren’t good enough ideas coming from Welsh commissioners. Well, this argument has been proven to be bogus with the BBC, where they failed to deliver for Wales for a long time, and we’ve now, through the new licence, required them to do more. And I think we need to require ITV to do more too, because clearly left to themselves we’ll get more of the same. So, the committee has recommended that Ofcom review the ITV licence at the mid-point to ask them to deliver more for Wales. That’s our message, Llywydd, to all the public service broadcasters, not just the BBC—we’ll be coming back to them shortly: we expect better. Diolch.

I call upon the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language, Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you very much, Presiding Officer, and I would like to join members of the committee in congratulating themselves on the work that they’ve carried out over the last few months. [Laughter.] They haven’t sold themselves short this afternoon, and they certainly don’t in the report that they’ve written, which I think Members across the whole Chamber will agree is a real tour de force, looking at all broadcasters and the structures of broadcasting and the structures of accountability. I can see that Members have had a great deal to do, and they’ve produced a report that, in many ways, is a blueprint for the sort of debate that we need to have about broadcasting in this country, as we move forward.Can I say this? At the heart of much of what we’re going to discuss and debate this afternoon and at other times is that issue of accountability and the issue of scrutiny. I absolutely believe that it’s right and proper—and the points that have been made by Members this afternoon demonstrate absolutely clearly that the current structures and frameworks of accountability, regulation, and scrutiny have failed. Wales has been failed by the existing structures and parliamentary scrutiny, because we have seen—and the report outlines very clearly—a diminution of coverage in Wales. We’ve seen reductions of hours of programming produced in Wales for Wales, and that has been done within a process of public scrutiny and public accountability. So, those structures, if they are to mean anything for this country, need to be reformed, and reformed fundamentally.Now, many of us have spent time in this place over the past few years looking at how we create and we recreate different structures of inter-institutional accountability across the United Kingdom. Now, I do not and I have not made the case for the devolution of Executive responsibility for broadcasting to Wales. For me, I feel that Executive responsibility is something that should rest properly with Westminster and the United Kingdom Government. However—however—I do not believe that accountability is something that should be centralised, for the reasons we’ve already seen and the reasons we’ve already given. For me, it is important that accountability is something that is delivered and carried out across the democratic institutions of the United Kingdom and done collectively, ensuring that we do have a model of inter-institutional accountability that works for the whole of the United Kingdom, and, particularly here, for the people of Wales.It is clear that all the issues of citizenship, which are absolutely fundamental to who we are as a country and who we want to be as a nation, are being failed at present. I hear what’s been said, and I’ve seen reports that ‘The Wales Report’ from the BBC is being scrapped—I hope that’s not true. I think the work that has been led by Huw Edwards over the past few years to inform and to establish a platform for debate and discussion about the public policy arena in Wales has been a success and is absolutely fundamental. It is not good enough for our most significant public service broadcaster not to have a serious programme about the politics of Wales run at prime time at some point in the week. But we need to be careful as well in what we say and what we do. If we are serious about public accountability and public scrutiny being carried out—and I believe that it should be by the Welsh Parliament and not by the Welsh Government; I think it’s important that parliamentarians do this collectively, not Ministers—we need to be very, very clear that we understand the difference between democratic scrutiny and accountability and interference. It is not right that politicians seek to interfere in decisions that are right and properly decisions for editors and managers within any broadcaster, within any public broadcaster, and we, ourselves, need to exercise the discipline of ensuring accountability without crossing the line into interference in editorial decisions, and we need to be very, very clear that we understand that and I hope and I trust that people here do.

Lee Waters AC: Will the Minister give way?

Alun Davies AC: Yes, I will.

Lee Waters AC: Given the distinction that he makes between the role of us as parliamentarians and the Government in the inter-institutional arrangements, as he puts it, does he have any reflections on the recommendation in the report that, before he gives the go-ahead for the approval of a BBC Wales appointee to the board, the Assembly’s culture committee has an opportunity to question that nominee?

Alun Davies AC: Lee Waters—it’s now become a tradition in this place for him to intervene and ask that question. I think he’s done it on every occasion that there’s been a debate here. And he’s obviously not pleased with the answers I’ve tried to give him. Let me say—[Interruption.] Let me say this, let me say this: I agree with the principle that has been outlined by the committee in terms of confirmation hearings, or whatever term we wish to use. I do agree with that process. This is not a Welsh Government process, it’s a UK Government process, so we don’t have the power to deliver that at present.But I would suggest to the committee that this is a matter they continue to pursue. They certainly could pursue this with their colleagues in other institutions of the United Kingdom, and I certainly, as the Minister in Wales, would be very happy to see that sort of system introduced here for that level of accountability and scrutiny. But, in terms of where we’re going, the Chair, in her introduction to this debate, did outline some of her concerns about decisions taken by the BBC in terms of resources and funding, and then she made a rather unhappy comparison with Scotland. Let me say this: what I want to do is to hold the BBC accountable for what it delivers. The decisions that they take about budgets and structures within the BBC are a matter for the BBC and not a matter for us. However, what is right and proper that we scrutinise is what they actually deliver and what they actually produce on our screens. I would counsel anybody who believes that establishing a standalone channel in English for Wales would succeed in garnering great audiences and would deliver a significant enhancement of our citizenship or democratic debate in this country—as somebody who has worked in broadcasting himself in terms of marketing and the rest of it, I would say to you it will be very, very difficult to grow significant audiences. Far better, I believe, is that the BBC network recognises the whole of its responsibilities to the whole of the United Kingdom, and the absolutely crucial thing for me is that we hold broadcasters to account for producing programming and reporting for the whole of the United Kingdom that represents the needs of the whole of the United Kingdom. Now, we haven’t seen that to date, we don’t see it at the moment, and I hope and believe that we should be able to ensure that we do have fair play when it comes to recognising the whole of the UK on our screens. I’ll bring my comments to an end here, Presiding Officer, by saying this: I hope—and the point that was made by Lee Waters in terms of ITV and other public service broadcasters is well made—that, over the coming years, we can develop a culture of accountability that ensures that all broadcasters, all public service broadcasters, and all producers of news and entertainment produced in Wales for Wales are able to do so in a way that enhances not only our citizenship, but also our cultural and historical inheritance, and we create a country whereby we can have the debate that we need to have as a country, that platforms are created where people can talk and debate amongst ourselves, we can tell each other our stories, we can look at the world through our eyes, and we can, at the same time, be a part of a greater whole in the United Kingdom. To do that, we will need new structures of governance, new structures of regulation, and new structures of accountability. I hope, and I am confident, that the report that we’re debating this afternoon is a significant step forward to achieving that. Thank you very much.

I call on Bethan Jenkins to respond to the debate.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you. I’m not going to speak for very long, but thank you all who have contributed and I’m sure this will—as Suzy captured quite well, I think, saying this is the first chapter of many that we will look into in relation to broadcasting, the newspaper industry, radio, and such, as part of this committee. Other committees of the Assembly have looked at it sporadically, but I think there has been a place here to have more focus, with communications being in the title of this committee. So, I’m hopeful that we can achieve what some of us have self-congratulated on already achieving, although I think we have much more to achieve. Let’s not sit on our laurels; we have much more to learn. In relation to what the Minister says on pre-appointment hearings, what I tried to say in what I was saying earlier was that you could potentially not give consent until you were satisfied that we would be able to have that appointment hearing—I’m not sure if the Minister’s listening to me—and whether we could have a committee discussion before it would get to you as a Minister. If other legislatures are not doing it at the moment, we could show the way in that regard in having that appointment hearing. So, I’m not sure whether I agree that you don’t have the power, and I’m sure many of us will be pursuing this issue with you down the line. I would agree with you that accountability should lie here also. I think the committee would diverge on where the power should lie. I’m sure everybody knows where my view stands on that. But, especially now we have this committee, accountability is clear, and, as Suzy said also, ruffling the feathers is something that we have done. I think, with Lee’s comments on ITV, that’s where some of the feathers were ruffled, I should say.But I think, from taking all the comments together, this is a good start for us for the future, not only looking at BBC—I do believe that that comment was correct. We have focused quite a lot, but I think that’s because the charter renewal process was coming up, and we had that focus on the charter. It’s safe to say that everybody is within grasp for us to scrutinise and hold to account, and, hopefully, they will see it in a good light, that we want to scrutinise in the best possible way so that we can make portrayal as effective as possible in future here in Wales, and to ensure that the funding streams fall in line to make sure that that is a possibility. We don’t want to be here in 10 years’ time without bilingual daleks. We would like to see bilingual daleks in 10 years’ time. So, therefore, we need to have those programmes—we need to have ‘Casualty’ with bilingual signs, and then we know we will have achieved our aim as a committee. No, to be serious, we have lots more work to do.Diolch yn fawr iawn i bawb ar y pwyllgor ac i’r clercod am fod mor drylwyr yn cefnogi’r pwyllgor, a gobeithio byddan nhw’n ein cefnogi ni yn y gwaith sydd yn dod ohono gydag S4C a gyda newyddiaduraeth leol. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to note the committee’s report. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. 8. Voting Time

We now move to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move directly to the vote, and that vote is on the debate seeking the Assembly’s agreement to introduce a Member-proposed Bill on autism. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 40, nine abstentions, none against. And therefore the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed: For 40, Against 0, Abstain 9.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6304.Click to see vote results

9. 9. Short Debate: Wales in the World—Developing Wales's International Links

That brings us to our next item on the agenda, the short debate. If Members could leave the Chamber quietly, I will call the short debate in the name of Jeremy Miles. I call on Jeremy Miles to speak to the topic he has chosen—Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Today, in the Senedd, we commemorated the thirty-fifth anniversary of the end of the Falklands war, in which many young men went to defend the Falkland islands from attack by Argentina, and many lost their lives. Wales has played its part on the world stage in many ways, not least among them the contribution of our young people to our armed forces.Mae’r ddadl hon heddiw ar rôl Cymru yn y byd, mewn sawl ffordd, yn ymgais i ddisgrifio ystod ehangach o ffyrdd y mae Cymru yn chwarae rôl adeiladol a buddiol ar y llwyfan rhyngwladol. Rwy’n ddiolchgar am y cyfle i gael cyflwyno’r ddadl hon, ac i David Rees, Cadeirydd y pwyllgor materion allanol, a Joyce Watson, a fydd hefyd yn cyfrannu yn y ddadl.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Jeremy Miles AC: Argentina has played a significant part in the history of Wales in the world. A little more than a century before the Falklands war, 153 pioneers left the shores of Wales for Patagonia, for the expanses of Chubut. There they formed a community that still, to this day, speaks and identifies as Welsh. The parliament they set up there gave Welsh women the vote in 1867, a full 51 years before their sisters back home achieved that same right. We have exported our progressive Welsh values to the world ever since. When we recently celebrated the hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the settlement in Patagonia, the BBC National Orchestra of Wales travelled there, backed by the Welsh Government and the British Council. This kind of cultural exchange and export is at the heart of what must become a global network of Welsh soft power. Whilst our hard power is limited, our enormous artistic, sporting, cultural, and educational assets, world-class in many instances—opera, instrumental, and theatre to name just a few— can, if properly deployed, create significant soft power, which can build bridges to all parts of the world, and through that, attract people to Wales, with their ideas and their ingenuity. We will not fulfil our potential if we do not invest in and harness that soft power intelligently and, critically, if we do not ally the way we deploy and support it closely to our economic policy.Mae hyn wastad wedi bod yn hollbwysig, ond mae hi’n bwysicach fyth gan ein bod ni nawr yn gadael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Un o’r sialensiau mwyaf o’n blaenau ni i gyd yw diwygio ein perthynas gyda’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Un o’r datganiadau pwysicaf mewn blynyddoedd ar rôl Cymru yn y byd yw hwnnw sydd ym Mhapur Gwyn Llywodraeth Cymru a Phlaid Cymru, ‘Diogelu Dyfodol Cymru’. Rhaid nawr sicrhau bod Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig yn delifro ar y blaenoriaethau y mae’r papur yn eu datgan. Ond tra nad yw ein perthynas ni gyda’r farchnad sengl yn glir, bydd yr ansicrwydd a achosir gan y broses o adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd yn golygu nad yw’r rhagolygon o ddenu busnes newydd i Gymru yn y blynyddoedd nesaf yn dda.Mae gyda ni eisoes fuddsoddwyr rhyngwladol sylweddol, wrth gwrs, ac mae ein cyd-ddibyniaeth byd-eang wedi ei ymgorffori yn GE, yn Tata, yn Ford, yn Airbus ac eraill—sy’n cyflogi rhyngddyn nhw miloedd ar filoedd o’n pobl. Ond rhaid i ni hefyd osod fel nod cryfhau ein busnesau brodorol.Helping Welsh business to access overseas markets must remain a priority. Welsh Government should, in my opinion, set up an industry-led body—we’ll call it ‘Trade Wales’—with Welsh Government backing, but operating independently, and with a clear remit to drive up the capacity of Welsh businesses to sell overseas, including online, providing both an ambassadorial role to overseas buyers, and a smart, mentor-led business support function. In some sectors, this is an urgent priority. More than 90 per cent of Welsh food and drink sector exports are to the EU. New markets must be found as a priority. And the trade deals that bring those new markets to us and that affect the basics of economic life should come to us in this Chamber for approval, so that the particular interests of the Welsh economy are protected. But we must look beyond Europe for our inspiration, and continue to build our relations with other parts of the globe. We should look to the work of the Saltire Fellowship Programme in Scotland, which connects entrepreneurs and executives in Scottish businesses with peers overseas to share global best practice and develop first-hand experience of overseas markets. Why shouldn’t we have an equivalent to that in Wales?Now, we know that anxiety about immigration from Europe lay as one of the main causes behind the decision to leave the European Union, but those of us who argued for keeping our European Union membership must not fall into the trap of believing that the current version of the freedom of movement rules are the only way for us to express our internationalism. Putting our national economic interest—both long term and in all parts of the UK—at the heart of a new migration system is the right thing to do. And yes, why should we not, as Canadian provinces do, have the power to stipulate local migration needs as part of a UK-wide system?Ond dylem ni hefyd adlewyrchu ein rhyngwladoliaeth mewn ymrwymiad i groesawu’r rheini sydd yn ffoi rhag rhyfel ac erledigaeth, ac rwy’n annog y Llywodraeth, felly, i weithredu ar argymhellion y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau i helpu gwneud Cymru yn genedl noddfa gyntaf.Let us remember that global migration is not a one-way street. Welsh people have always lived beyond our shores, and we should be proud of our Welsh diaspora. Whilst outreach initiatives such as Global Welsh are to be welcomed, as far as they go, what we really need is a crisp and clear policy statement from the Welsh Government about the aims and purpose of the diaspora policy, how we will map the diaspora, who we can work with to achieve that, the role that Government can play, what Government expects of others, and how it will work with the UK Government to develop and nurture relationships with Welsh people overseas.This is not about soft networking and nostalgia, enjoyable though both those things can be. It’s about how Wales can flourish from the talent, creativity and commitment of all Welsh people, wherever they happen to live. Without an unambiguous strategy and policy framework, we risk failing in that ambition. And yet, this isn’t just about what Government can do. We must also issue a challenge to our Welsh diaspora. Wherever you live, our question must be, ‘What can you do now for Wales?’ But the skills and outlooks that we need to take advantage of our role in the world must, principally, be nurtured here at home, through an outward-looking education system.Rwy’n cymeradwyo Llywodraeth Cymru ar ei rhaglen addysg ryngwladol, sy’n cael ei darparu gan y British Council ac sy’n helpu i roi persbectif rhyngwladol i ddisgyblion. Rwy’n gobeithio gweld adeiladu ar hyn wrth inni ddatblygu ein cwricwlwm yn yr ysgolion. Ond rŷm ni hefyd yn gwybod pa mor bell y tu ôl rŷm ni yn dysgu ieithoedd tramor modern, sydd wedi bod yn dirywio ers dros ddegawd, gyda gostyngiad o dros 44 y cant dros y 15 mlynedd diwethaf o ddisgyblion yn astudio hynny i lefel A. Mae’n ymddangos nad yw’r camau rŷm ni’n eu cymryd i fynd i’r afael â hyn wedi bod yn gweithio. Mae’r galw am ieithoedd modern i sicrhau llwyddiant yn yr economi rhyngwladol ar gynnydd, ac ni fyddwn yn paratoi ein pobl ifanc yn ddigonol i ffynnu mewn economi byd-eang oni yr awn i’r afael â’r sialens honno ar fyrder.Mae ein prifysgolion yn rhan o rwydwaith byd-eang o ymchwil ac astudiaeth, a gallwn ni fod yn falch ohonyn nhw. Mae dros 25,000 o fyfyrwyr rhyngwladol yn astudio yn ein prifysgolion yng Nghymru, pob un ohonyn nhw yn ddarpar-lysgennad dros Gymru wrth iddyn nhw fynd adref i’w gwledydd. Mae rhaglenni megis Global Wales yn cynorthwyo ein prifysgolion i ymestyn eu cyrhaeddiad, ond rhaid iddyn nhw gael eu trwytho gydag ymdeimlad newydd o gyfrifoldeb i ddefnyddio’r rhwydweithiau hynny, nid dim ond i wella eu hymchwil ac addysgu eu hunain, ond i adeiladu economi a chymdeithas Cymru ehangach.Thousands of students have crossed new horizons as a part of the European Union’s Erasmus programmes. Outside the EU, we must ensure these opportunities remain, and not as bilateral deals between universities, but as a multilateral network of mutual exchange opportunities, helping to weave that fabric of international citizenship. As we seek to create a level playing field between academic and vocational education, what is the scale of the Government’s ambition to give apprentices the same opportunity to work and study overseas? There are already good examples for us to build upon, but until we can offer the opportunity of overseas placement to apprentices as widely as we do to students, we will not achieve that parity of esteem, which is one of the core values that we have in our new approach to skills and education.With our values, in all that we do, our activities overseas must reflect the values we cherish at home. We have legislated in this place to be a globally responsible nation. Whether that be through Wales in Africa or through our Under2 Coalition of environmental partnerships, we’ve taken our global citizenship obligations seriously for a small country. But we must also live our values as we trade—as we choose our trading partners and as we choose to describe them. Relationships that we choose to describe as special relationships are hard won and must be based on shared values and not simply mutual commercial gain.So, the ways in which we engage with the rest of the world are varied, complex and connected. It is essential not only that we act to shore up our cultural soft power, support our exporters, build a network of students and researchers and remain engaged and responsible global partners, but in an age of scarce resources and complex challenges, each of the steps that we take must complement and support one another. Those working to extend our cultural links should be able to collaborate with those delivering trade missions. Those working to meet our environmental aims should know what we are doing to extend our educational reach. That requires a co-ordinated ‘Wales in the world’ strategy, which tells us the Welsh Government’s priorities, how it will act, and indeed what the Government seeks in the interests of Wales from the UK Government’s foreign policy—and a strategy that is routinely debated and scrutinised in this Chamber.For most of my working life, prior to being elected, I worked for international businesses, working on projects in the US, in Europe, in Australia, in the far east, as well as here in the UK. The global context was ever present. Since being elected, it struck me how little we bring to bear international context on our discussions in this place. In 2015, the Welsh Government published a good strategy for its engagement with the world, which bears the same name as this debate. It has not featured in any significant way in the proceedings of this institution. So, I welcome the fact that the Government has now convened an international group under the auspices of the office of the First Minister, and I look forward to this Chamber having an opportunity to debate and discuss its work.How we choose to relate to other countries is not a discretionary item. Get it right and we can help our communities; we can help Wales flourish. Get it wrong, and we will be left behind. We are living through an age where turning inwards and circling the wagons is tempting in a world of rapid change. It is up to us, in this place, to make the case for a clear, visible, joined-up external strategy, and to make the case for Wales in the world.

David Rees AC: Can I thank the Member for Neath for this debate this evening and for offering me a minute of his time? He has talked about Patagonia and our moves across in the 1850s, but can I also remind him of where our values of fairness and social justice have also been expressed? It is with the many Welsh citizens that joined the international brigade in the Spanish civil war, to fight fascism, to fight the extreme right wing, and to ensure that social justice was available to all across the world. I think that what we are trying to say this evening is that that outward-looking aspect of Wales needs to come to the fore now as well. Post Brexit there is an opportunity for us to do that. We are seeing the changes in the European Union relationship. We are seeing the opportunities for Wales to take itself out to the world once more, to sell itself out to the world once more, and to ensure that what we have—the values that we have and the values that we share—is suitable to all the trading agreements that will be in place and will serve our communities well.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you, Jeremy, for giving me time to speak in your short debate today. As regional chair of the Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians association, I am acutely aware of the value of international partnerships and the benefits that they can and do deliver for all of us. The excellent partnership of the CWPA and the agreed programme of action has helped to deliver progress and change in a number of hugely important areas that include ending violence against women and children, trafficking of human beings and enhancing women’s prospects in the economy. So, it is by working in partnership with countries across the Commonwealth that has allowed us to share our knowledge and our ideas, and also to help to deliver change. At a time when Brexit is looming large on the agenda, partnerships with our friends both within the Commonwealth and also Europe will, I believe, be more crucial than ever they were before.

Thank you. I call on the Leader of the house to reply to the debate—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I would like to thank Jeremy Miles for raising this important topic. I think this is probably the most critical time since devolution in terms of Wales’s international agenda. It’s also good to use the opportunity tonight to welcome the extensive experience that you are bringing to this debate, and indeed, into this Assembly, and to draw attention to the fact that we are probably not fully enabling that experience and that focus—which David Rees also drew attention to—in our proceedings. But, I think it is important, as you say, that we did publish ‘Wales in the World’, the Welsh Government’s international agenda, in 2015. But, what a great—you know, what happenings. What a great deal has happened since then. The EU referendum result and last week’s election showed, of course, the impact of events, and of course, these events have a major impact on our international agenda. I think that when the implications of Brexit are clearer, we will be able to prioritise how we engage in a reshaped European Union and beyond, and take informed decisions about how best to allocate our resources. At that point, we will publish a new international strategy. But, in the meantime, we are continuing with our international engagement on all the fronts that you have referred to, and I will touch on those. Now, more than ever, we need to develop the economy to ensure that Wales continues to prosper. The focus of our international work is clear: to create a more prosperous and sustainable Wales through increased export and investment while increasing Wales's influence and international recognition. I think that's that kind of wider diplomatic, political role that we need to focus on that you've drawn attention to today. We need to continue to promote Wales as a great place to live, study, work, visit and do business. We need to secure the financial position for this generation, our children's generation, and generations to come.Since devolution, the Welsh Government has a good story to tell. Our international reputation around the globe has grown and continues to grow, and where we are known we are no longer regarded as a little backwater with a scarred landscape, as a reminder of days gone by when we had a thriving coal industry; we now have a completely different profile and are better known for our knowledge-based economy, cutting-edge research, excellent higher education sector, a fantastic location to visit, with tourism figures going up and up, and for the excellent quality of our food and produce. In terms of reputation, earlier this month, the eyes of the world were on Wales when over 200 million people from over 200 countries and territories watched the UEFA Champions League finals, the first time that the men's and women's finals have been held in the same city on the same weekend, and 170,000 visitors from across the globe came to Cardiff for these events. And you can't put a price on the value of positive international profile.You've mentioned culture. Culture has a huge part to play in developing profile, helping to develop influential links at all levels. And Wales is rich in culture and heritage, and we need to make that work for us, now becoming known internationally as the home of the Singer of the World competition, which is taking place this week, of Artes Mundi, the largest art prize in the UK and one of the most significant in the world, and of the Dylan Thomas prize, one of the most prestigious awards for young writers. And Wales is also at the forefront in leading the world in several initiatives, such as becoming the world's first Fairtrade Nation, developing a Wales for Africa programme, and introducing the Well-being of future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. And since devolution, we have developed relations with countries and regions such as Ireland and Brittany, where we have clear affinities, all of which have meant developing productive international working relationships and creating opportunities to share best practice. Post Brexit, we’ll be looking to develop new relationships where it makes sense to do so, and I'm also glad that Joyce Watson drew attention to the vibrant work and engagement led by Joyce in particular in terms of the Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians group and association—and we had a great conference here in Cardiff, which Joyce hosted, only recently, looking at women's entrepreneurship and looking at some really interesting examples here from Wales. But at the heart of our international and economic strategy, it's about how we provide meaningful support for Welsh companies that want to export their goods and services, internationalise their business, increasing the values of exports, and the number of Welsh companies that export—central pillars of our economic strategy. We've got a comprehensive range of support for existing and would-be exporters that is focused on four key areas: inspiring them to start or grow their exports; transferring the knowledge and skills to build their capabilities to export; helping them to connect with potential customers overseas; and supporting visits to overseas markets. So, we assist companies at every stage of their export journey, and we've helped Welsh companies to win new export orders. And last year, we took more than 170 different companies on trade missions and overseas exhibitions to a diverse range of markets. And this year, our programme includes some familiar destinations: India, China, Japan, for example, as well as less familiar markets such as Singapore, Vietnam, South Korea and Iran. And while Wales exports two thirds of its goods to EU countries, this programme emphasises the importance of maintaining and creating trade links with markets outside of Europe. But we're determined to support Welsh exporters as much as we can in a post-Brexit economy—at the front and centre of any message to companies is the statement that Wales is open for business.Companies in Wales have already taken action to respond to the challenges of a post-EU economy, and we're working with more and more companies to support them to export. And I want everyone across Wales and the rest of Europe to understand that, for us, departing the EU in no sense means that Wales will turn its back on Europe; we've always been clear that the Welsh Government respects the decision to leave the European Union, but our White Paper, ‘Securing Wales’ Future’, does provide a comprehensive and credible plan for the negotiations as the UK prepares to exit from the EU. Can I also say again how important is David Rees’s chairing of what is now increasingly the external affairs rather than additional legislation Committee—what an important role that is playing here in the Assembly, and is recognised beyond here in the UK and Europe? Of course, Jeremy Miles is a key member of that committee. I think the role will develop, and is developing substantially, as we move forward.We stand ready to work constructively with the UK Government to secure a deal that protects Welsh businesses, our economy and the future prosperity of Wales. Our young people have not known life outside the European Union, with its free exchange of people and EU-funded programmes. You mentioned Erasmus; in 2015, Erasmus+ in Wales support some 2,600 staff and students in the higher and further education and youth sectors to study, work, volunteer, teach and train in Europe. We must see these opportunities continue after Brexit. Also, you talked about Wales being a welcoming country, benefitting from inward migration, from many parts of the world, including the EU, and migrants in Wales are making a huge contribution to delivering our vital public services and working in our key economic sectors, welcoming thousands of students from all over the world to study here and strengthening our world-class university offering. I think, looking ahead, we need to see that we still need to recruit from both the EU and around the world for jobs where there is a clear need to do so because of a shortage. We want to make those who are already here continue to play their part in making Wales the successful, outward-looking nation that it is. I’m glad you’ve drawn attention again to the outward-looking, welcoming work that’s been done by the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee on refugees, and we will be debating that again shortly. So, finally I want to mention the fact that, over the past 10 years as a Government we’ve supported and encouraged tens of thousands of people in Wales to get involved and contribute to international development through our Wales for Africa programme. More children are now going to school, thousands of women have been empowered through skills training and some of the poorest families are healthier thanks to the extensive training Welsh health workers have offered as part of that.In conclusion, Brexit and globalisation present both challenges and opportunities for Wales. Working together across the political spectrum with a wide range of partners in Wales, the UK and internationally, we can maximise our footprint across the world and help Wales to become a more prosperous, globally responsible nation.

Thank you very much. That brings today’s proceedings to a close. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 17:38.

QNR

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education

Jenny Rathbone: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the level of funding for schools in Cardiff?

Kirsty Williams: Gross schools expenditure in Cardiff last year was budgeted to be over £288 million, 3.8% higher than in 2015-16. Cardiff delegated over 88% of the funding to schools giving a delegated budget of over £254 million - a 5.7% increase from the previous year, the highest percentage increase in Wales.

Simon Thomas: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure the viability of higher education?

Kirsty Williams: A strong and vibrant higher education sector is crucial to the future wellbeing and prosperity of Wales.  The reforms I announced in November in response to the Diamond Report will create a more sustainable higher education sector in Wales and provide the most generous student support package in the UK.

Vikki Howells: How does the Welsh Government ensure teachers can effectively support pupils' learning during the transition from primary to secondary schooling?

Kirsty Williams: The Welsh Government is committed to improving the continuity and progression in learning for all learners moving from primary to secondary school. We have legislation in place requiring secondary schools and their feeder primaries to draw up transition plans to support the transition of learners from primary to secondary school.